Bill: Marty, I like that shirt a lot better. Thanks.

Marty: This was about to be the white t shirt episode.

Bill: Marty and I were talking about this conversation that we want to have today about connection. Marty noticed over my shoulder here. This. He said, what is that thing up on your bookshelf? And it's a Kenyan talking stick.

Bill: And I got it at a five mile run that they hold every year here in Spokane called the Spokane. That's what they call it. The Spokane. Spokane, yeah. So they bring people in from sp from Kenya because they need water resources. They're drinking dirty water over there. Not anymore. I think they've been working on this for a while, and they've got some help, but they're raising money too.

Bill: Get clean water for Kenyans. And so the, some of the Kenyans come over and they sell some of the stuff that they make over there. And this is a Kenyan walking stick. And I like it a lot because I love the idea that if I'm holding the stick, I get to talk and you can listen and respect me. And then I hand you this, you the stick.

Bill: And what's cool is that somewhere in your home, you said you have one too, that you actually got in Kenya.

Marty: Yeah. I know it's downstairs in a box right now. I used to have it sitting like you on the bookshelf. Yeah. Yes, exactly. I bought it when I went there to climb out Kilimanjaro.

Bill: Cool. If you find it, I think it'd be very cool if, in our episodes, Whoever's holding a stick, of course, we both got one, but we might need to show it and say, I'm talking here.

Bill: So we're talking, let me turn off my notification. Just got a bell there. So that means I need to turn that off. We're talking today about connection and I was telling you before we hit record that I believe, don't need to be right about it, but I believe that connection is our default state. The word connection can mean a lot of different things, but in the context of relationships, connection is what I want to talk about with you today.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah, we're, there's other kinds of connection like the connection between two railroad cars or, the electrical connection that makes this light happen, for example, but we're talking today about what we would call the ontological connection, our connection in being.

Bill: Yes, exactly.

Bill: And. The second half of that I wanted to talk about is that if in fact connection is our default state, which by the way, the reason I believe that is because when I am connected with someone, it feels effortless. I don't actually have to try to insert connection. However, I could sure tell when there's disconnection.

Bill: I can tell where there's connection and I can tell where there's disconnection. And it seems it's the easy way is to be connected things feel really hard when there's disconnection. What do we have anything to talk about at all? Do we agree or disagree? Seems to determine whether or not we feel this connection.

Bill: Or both, let's say in the same political party and agree on the same candidate and on the policies, if that's what we're talking about, we might actually feel a little bit of connection there. It's ontologically, maybe not a great deal, but at least we agree and we're not in some sort of conflict with each other.

Bill: But I think the true connection. Is not doesn't have so much to do with what we're talking about as who we're being in that conversation. If we're because

Marty: you could even be having an argument differing in your opinion and still be connected, right? It's a delicate, but. And complex, but beautiful thing to see two people disagreeing, but staying connected, you don't have to dismiss.

Marty: I know that's very popular these days, oh, we disagree, then we're on, we have nothing to do with each other. I hate you because we disagree. No, it doesn't have to be that way. Couples experience a lot of, toing and froing, let's call it, but they stay connected.

Bill: So from a coaching perspective, we're both leadership coaches. I'm sure that this is true for you. And I'd love to hear if you have some examples of it and I'll come up with some myself working with clients who, whether they've named it this way or not, are experiencing disconnection and want reconnection, they want to find a way to reconnect.

Marty: It's, I think it's. It's a very, it's a very, it's one of the basic reasons people, including me, come to a coach, go to a coach, want coaching, is to get reconnected. Because there, we get in our head, and we have an idea or an opinion or a belief that, We are separate and that is the separation is that belief itself.

Marty: Like you said, default. If you took that belief out, Oh, we still are connected, right? It's the belief that gets. And it's interesting that there's a whole literature that has studied on one particular book that's very powerful on this topic. It's called the inner critic and it's by a couple. Whose name's not coming to me right at this second. But they have studied this phenomenon throughout the world. So it's not just in our culture, but in all human cultures. There's a moment. When we're about five years old, could some people's a little later or earlier when the bicameral mind that we have two chambers in our mind, they, they become separate or no longer this one unified.

Marty: Being that's also unified with the everything around us. We become aware of ourselves. Oh, Mommy's over there and I'm over here and Freud called this the fort da phase Fort means there and da means here that's what we first start to regulate Oh, I'm separate mom and dad left and I'm here now all by myself or, something happens and we recognize, Oh, that's me. Or that's not me for the first time. And it's a growth phase. It's a natural developmental phase that we go through. And we, that's the, and that's where we first start to think these thoughts that separate us. That's see where we see ourselves as different and talk about ourselves as separate.

Marty: That's where disconnection first starts to happen. It doesn't mean that we actually became disconnected, but our thinking makes it so getting back to, this is one of the main reasons people come to a coach. We we have an idea like I can't do this or this is too hard or she's impossible, right?

Marty: Separation, separate, difference, separation. And so the coach helps us distinguish that, oh, that's a belief of yours. That's a, or a habit in your behavior, and you start to separate that out and see what it is for itself. And. It allows you to reconnect then, right? To see that, oh, that was the only thing in the way.

Marty: There's actually connection here from the get go.

Bill: That's, I love all of this. I love all of this. My mind is going in a hundred different directions with different ideas and thoughts just based on a couple of things that you said. Can I throw

Marty: one more thing out there? This is reminding me of a great exercise we did in the training that I got as a coach we're working on mirroring people, right?

Marty: So it's one of the best ways to get in connection with somebody is just. Turn off your mind, because that's what's going to separate you anyway, and listen, like actually just be there as a listener, and and so rather than creating your own ideas that separate us again, you just, you repeat back what you heard.

Marty: So what I hear you saying is, huh, so you're angry, huh, and you think it's because of this. I get it. So you get connected with them because you're getting into their mind. You're letting their mind get into yours. And so we would, we had this exercise where we practiced it being so present to the other person that like, they gave us like a list of five colors.

Marty: Red, yellow, blue, green, white and so you didn't know which your partner was gonna say, but, and at first you'd, you'd get it wrong, they'd say red and you were anticipating green and it wasn't quite there, but as the more you work together, the more you could end, you could as they were saying it, you were saying the same color, because we were connecting.

Marty: Wow. Amazing exercise. You have, it takes a little practice, but you get to the point where like you would be saying red, green, blue, and I'd be right with you at the same time saying red, green, blue, because I'm so connected

Bill: to you. Wow. That, if I had any hair that would blow it, it'd be blown away right now.

Marty: We were all blown away. We couldn't believe we could do it, but you can.

Bill: Unbelievable. Huh. Long before a demonstration like that, or even without a demonstration like that, I can feel connection. Yeah. And I can feel disconnection. How does, how

Marty: do you feel

Bill: it?

Bill: That's a great question. I certainly know when it's happening. I feel at ease. I feel connected is to say I feel at ease. I feel safe. I feel present. And the moment that I begin to feel this connection, that ease. Goes away. In essence. Can go away. Yeah. Safety goes away.

Marty: Huh. It becomes hard and effortful and dangerous.

Bill: It feels dangerous. And I think that there's something to that, obviously there's something to it, but to understand what that something is really what I'm curious about. So I have another theory. And that is that what generates that feeling of disconnection is that someone between the two of us has put something inauthentic into that space.

Bill: And I mentioned earlier when we were talking about this that, that something could be an agenda that isn't explicitly owned or acknowledged. Okay. Now I'm going to, now I'm going to sell you a car, but I'm not going to tell you that I'm selling you a car. So I'm going to keep pointing you in the direction of, oh, isn't that a nice car?

Bill: What color do you like? I'm seeking colors. Oh, that one's blue. I've got a blue one.

Bill: Let's think of other examples. Obviously, I'm not going to be bringing up selling you a car in a normal conversation, but let's just say you say something that makes me, that I have an internal response to. And now I'm feeling disconnected. You haven't done anything. It's just that you've said something that triggered something inside of me.

Bill: And now I'm feeling disconnected from you. If I'm not, if I'm not consciously aware, first of all, that I'm feeling that disconnection and that something shifted. Secondly, if I am aware of it, depending on what parts of me now take over to, to manage that. Yeah, I may not be able to restore the disconnection.

Bill: In fact, if I feel unsafe enough, I may sever any possibility of connection and just go find safety before I try it again with you. Yeah,

Marty: I think there are also some times when it's just benign. It's just distraction. Like you, you were talking and you said Cincinnati and it's that there's nothing.

Marty: Inauthentic or threatening about it, but I just started thinking about that time I was in Cincinnati and, we were sitting on that porch and it's just distraction. It's nothing, against you, but or threatening, but it is disconnect.

Bill: Not to defend my theory, but I want to defend my theory a little bit.

Bill: Let's use that same example Cincinnati. So you say Cincinnati. And I'm thinking Cincinnati Reds. Boy, they've got a horrible baseball team. If anybody's from Cincinnati, no offense, but every I've been watching baseball since I was about seven years old. My dad and I and my brother and my dad and I used to play a card game was 52 cards and the Cincinnati Reds I used to think they were the creds because dad would write down on top of the score sheet see reds, so I thought it was creds and.

Bill: And I would refer to them that way. Anyhow, so Cincinnati, you say Cincinnati, my mind goes off in all these kinds of different directions, similar to what I just shared with you. Now, what's inauthentic? The only thing that's inauthentic is if I pretend like I'm still listening. Oh, I see. And when that happens, there's a disconnection.

Bill: Let's just say you were the speaker and you said something about Cincinnati. Now, my mind goes off in a different direction. I'm still making eye contact with you. I'm still nodding at Roswell. I might even be saying, huh. But if I'm not listening, I'm thinking about the Kreds instead.

Marty: And you just, you also just demonstrated the opposite of this because you said, now I'm going to disagree with you.

Marty: And we, and you kept in connection, like that could have been the disconnect, but you kept the connection going, which is the opposite of, saying we're connected when we're not right.

Bill: That's the, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm asserting is that the, that inauthenticity I'm going to continue to nod or make the noises as if I'm listening.

Bill: Okay. That's the inauthenticity. I could be thinking about Cincinnati, the Cincinnati Reds. And when I catch myself. And you're continuing to talk. I realized, oh, I missed out on the last 15 seconds. You're right. There's absolutely a disconnection there. And the way to restore that connection would be to say, for me to acknowledge and say, oh, you know what?

Bill: I, my mind went off in a different direction when you said Cincinnati and I missed the last 10 or 15. Can you rewind? Would you say that again? I don't wanna miss it. ,

Marty: right? Yeah. That's a good, that's a good practice. And the, there's also speaking of the practices in the spiral method, spiral method.com, if you're interested

Bill: who prior to this, we talked

Marty: Leslie, we talked to Leslie, the inventor of this bio method.

Marty: There's. A part of that process that where you say what you are withholding what that inauthenticity that hasn't been expressed in it. It's a beautiful way to build connection. So you can do it. You can do it around the dinner table. You can just take a moment to stop and. Recognize where you're not connected.

Marty: I'm not connected because I'm really still mad at you for not doing mowing the grass today. I know you're going to do it tomorrow, but I'm still holding on to that, disconnect between us. So if I say it, then we can, we're reconnected. Yeah.

Bill: At least there's the opportunity to, depends on how I receive it or if I deflect it.

Bill: You're mad at me for not mowing the lawn today. What is going on?

Marty: And part of the beauty of the spiral method is that it gives us rules for how to eliminate the disconnect of the withhold and make it a connection. Like for example when the person says, look, I, this has been in the way it's between us and you don't know that I'm telling you now, the rule is you just say thank you.

Bill: But what if you're not feeling thank you? What if, yeah, I'm following the rules. By the way, I was raised in an alcoholic, violent home, so I knew what I was supposed to say. And I would say that otherwise it was really painful one way or another. So I knew how to say thank you. I can follow the rules in a spiral method or in whatever process we might be going through.

Bill: But what if I'm not feeling thank you? Yeah. What do you do then? Then you've,

Marty: then you've got to

Bill: withhold. And

Marty: is that the way you withhold? I'm withholding the fact that that I'm not okay with what you just told me.

Bill: Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be saying thank you right now, but what's really going on is I'm, now I'm pissed off.

Bill: And is that something that would happen in the spiral method? Sorry? Is that what would happen in the spiral method then?

Marty: I'm not 100% sure, but yes. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what happens.

Bill: Yeah. Because the point of the spiral method is to reveal truth, right? To

Marty: be accurate. And to be connected.

Marty: That's why it works wonders in corporate context, where people are working in silos. Silos. Silos. And you spiral for a few minutes and all of a sudden you're all connected and it makes a huge difference in productivity.

Bill: That's a question I didn't ask Leslie when we were talking to her.

Bill: Why is it called the spiral method? Why, how did that word come up with the word to use to describe what happens when you say spiral as a verb? Do you know?

Marty: I think I know.

Bill: So Leslie, hopefully you're watching this and please let us know if we get this right or not.

Marty: It's the connection spirals upward. We start out spiraling downward out of connection. And when we do the method, things spiral up into connection. Oh,

Bill: love it. That's great.

Bill: So Leslie, if that's not the actual reason, that's the reason you should tell everybody, I think. Thank you. So let's get back to if we could, let's get back to how, and you've already made some references to this in some of your comments, how, if we're working with a coaching client, someone who is an aspiring leader or a seasoned leader.

Bill: Who is maybe beginning to recognize from this conversation or prior to it that there's a problem. They're not feeling they're not feeling connected to the people they're working with, or they're not feeling connected to the people they're living with. And let's say that person came to you in coaching.

Bill: How would you help them?

Marty: I think that what we were just talking about has a lot of the clues in it, there's a need to get into authentic communication, right? To be who we really are for that person so that they have an opportunity to be with. To be that real themselves, right? If that, so it's, somebody's got to be the first one to say, Oh my gosh, this isn't working.

Marty: And I'm willing to step forward and say where I'm being an authentic or where I'm disconnected. So that there's the possibility that the other person, and sometimes they won't. Sometimes the other person won't meet the moment, but that's where it's got to start is by getting real with them. There

Bill: has to be an opportunity for it, at least, and you can, and what I'm hearing from you is that you can only do your part.

Bill: You can't expect the other person to do their part, right?

Marty: But there is but there's a lot of hope because, we are naturally because we are primevally connected. When we feel that coming from the other side. Not every single time, but I think most of the time, a human being wants to get reconnected and will respond appropriately.

Bill: I've actually had people approach me. I was involved in 12 step for a long time, and one of the really important steps In in the 12 steps is nine eight and nine both, but as step eight is made a list of people we'd harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. And then step nine is made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Bill: And that I believe is one of the most difficult steps to learn how to do and to do well. Oh, so hard. Who have I harmed? Oh, I didn't really harm them. Is it possible that I harmed them? That's that, I'm not going to put them on the list. They harmed me more than I harmed them. All of that.

Bill: What we're talking about here is disconnection and opportunity for reconnection. And so to develop the ability, the skill set around how to actually make amends, and I like the word repairs better than amends. I've been involved, let's say, I've been involved in The disconnection somehow I've contributed.

Bill: I know we used to be connected and now we're not anymore. That means that I've been involved and I do harm. Maybe there's a different way to phrase that too. Maybe it's not so much that I did harm, but I contributed to our disconnection. Yeah. And in that way, maybe that was harmful to you. But I do want to acknowledge, let's just say, I do want to acknowledge that I've contributed somehow to our disconnection.

Bill: So it's my intention. I'd really love to reconnect again. So let me just own what I do know about what I might have done to, to contribute to our disconnection. And then maybe you can tell me more. So these are, when people have come to me with that attitude and anywhere near that kind of language with this key element in the center of it, I want to be connected with you again.

Bill: I just open up. So when you say there, there can be a lot of hope here if I'm the only one doing my part and going to the other person and owning an inauthenticity. And then repairing that. There is a lot of hope because if done in the spirit of an intention of connection, that other person might actually open up a little bit.

Bill: Not as a manipulation, but it's just a response. It feels safer. I'm now coming to you and saying, I recognize that I've contributed to our disconnection and I want connection again.

Marty: Yeah, because if, I think it feels primordially more comfortable, more at home, more at peace, and that is, that is what we all want, that is where we came from, that's where we're going to, and of course, you could be caught up, and you could not see that, it would be much better for you.

Marty: Like I might not see it would be much better for me to be to make peace with you because I'm still holding on to that grudge, but insofar as I'm doing that, I'm disconnecting from you. But the I like that. It is a very hard step to make amends. And sometimes what I found is that because I'm in a trusted program too.

Marty: It's called ACA, which is adult children of alcoholics. So I didn't pick up the drink, but I was affected by the dysfunction in the family. And there's a lot of work to do there too. But what I wanted to say is that sometimes, there's that subtle letting them be and authentic.

Marty: I know very well that you're not being your loving self when said that mean thing to me, but I didn't stand up and say, Hey, that's not the real you. I was complicit in that. I shrunk. I didn't challenge it. I thought maybe you're right. Or I just, wimped out. And in so far, I was complicit.

Marty: And so sometimes making amends is just a matter of saying, when you were being really mean to me, I should have stood up to you because I know that's not the real you. And so I'm sorry that I didn't nip it in the bud

Bill: right then. Beautiful. Love that, Marty. That's beautiful.

Bill: Yeah, and if we're running it through the filter of how did I harm you? It's hard to come to that. It's hard. I didn't harm you. I allowed you to walk all over and you harmed me but if I can recognize that I, it takes two to do this particular dance and I'm one of the dancers. What did I bring that this, I was sober for over 21 years before I began to recognize how I contributed to the resentments that I had.

Bill: How I had done seven or eight fourth steps by then, and I just couldn't get it. I didn't have the ability to go inside and be honest with myself. It's crazy. I feel a little embarrassed admitting this but now I can look back and realize that's what was true is that as much as I wanted to know the truth, I didn't know it.

Bill: I love it. I love this saying. I don't know if it's mine or somebody else's. I would tell you the truth if I knew it. I didn't know it. I went looking for it and I couldn't find it. Something happens. Something happened for me were and I guess what happened was I discovered the work of Byron Katie that gave me the ability actually gave me a map for how to go inside and start getting honest with myself.

Bill: Thank you. Yeah, with her four questions. That's great. Awesome. It was wonderful. And, someone else that I began listening to in 2015, I started listening to Brooke Castile's, the life coach school podcast, which I recommend love Brooke Castile, love her concepts. And in the very first, I believe it was the very first episode where she talked about Having discovered Byron Katie, and then drawing the conclusions that she drew, and she actually had a process, still probably does, have a process for how to begin to question yourself, and then turn that into getting different results.

Bill: I used to call that outcome by design. What is the thought that I have? That's producing the results that I'm getting. Now, if I could change that thought, I would get different results. Yes. It's similar to what you were saying before, which is that our beliefs are one of the first ways that we begin to disconnect from the world.

Bill: I believe that I'm separate from you is a belief that has me feeling separate and disconnected from you. From the rest of the world. And here's the thing that both, both Brooke and I came up with at about the same, apparently about the same time. I thought she must have stolen it from me because she almost said it word for word just exactly as I understood it.

Bill: And that is this. We believe what we believe. So therefore we think what we think. Our thoughts come from our beliefs. Beliefs are not the truth. They're thought habits that we think so much they turn into beliefs. So from these thought habits, from these beliefs, now when we perceive the events and circumstances of our lives, they get filtered through the beliefs that we have, whether they're accurate or not.

Bill: And then they produce the thoughts that we have. And those thoughts have a are reacted to emotionally. We have emotions associated with our thoughts, and then we have thoughts associated with our emotions. So we have, speaking of spirals, we have this swirl of thoughts and emotions and thoughts and emotions that are all based not on the event that happened, but on the beliefs that we have about that event.

Bill: Yeah. And then given what we feel, we do what we do what we do because of how we feel, I like how I feel so I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing that got me that feeling, or I don't like how I feel so I'm going to stop doing whatever it is that I'm doing. I believe what I believe, so I think what I think, so I feel what I feel, so I do what I do, and then I get the results that I get.

Bill: I'm a results coach, and that's a great formula to help somebody identify if I don't like the results that I'm getting, what is the source of it? It's my beliefs, but there's actually a deeper source as well. Where did the beliefs come from? How did I draw that particular conclusion that had me believing that whatever it is that I believe that's way back in the back of my unconscious mind, so that automatically, without even consciously having to think about it, I respond immediately with emotion and sometimes with behavior that gets me the results that I want to, that I get.

Bill: If I want to get different results now, I need to go back and explore and get curious about and discover where did this belief come from and is it valid? Was it ever valid? But is it more importantly, is it valid now? And if it's not, time to update it. Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking about connection and disconnection.

Bill: If somebody comes to me and they're saying words that I translate as I'm feeling disconnection Bill and I want to feel connection again, I begin to listen for the beliefs just as it sounds like you do. Yeah. And then when I used to use Byron Katie to help them challenge those beliefs, now what I do is I find their parts.

Bill: I help them to identify the parts of them that are holding those beliefs and influencing them to think that way now. And then that is what. Helps them produce different results like connection.

Marty: Parts talk is very helpful here because it gives you plenty of places to stand besides in that belief.

Marty: That's just a part of me, right? So I can relate to it. I can separate from it for the sake of being authentically

Bill: connected. You just absolutely just now to me defined why I F S internal family systems parts work is so powerful because it gives me permission and ability. It gives me a map again.

Bill: And how do I disconnect from this belief enough to be able to look at it? How do I disconnect enough from the part of me that absolutely believes this and holds onto that belief because it's designed somehow to give me a positive outcome? How do I separate myself enough from it to be able to look at it objectively, almost like a scientist would, looking at it through a microscope at a petri dish and explore from curiosity and factually, black and white factually, is this even valid?

Bill: And if it's not let's bring all the parts together and say, Hey, update. News alert here. This used to be valid or it used to make sense that we would believe this given that circumstance that the belief was formed within, but things have changed. It's as of the making of this episode, it's 2023.

Bill: I'm 68 years old. I'm not six years old anymore. So this belief is not valid and it's really not working. This particular circumstance, I'm feeling disconnected from, let's say my wife, because. There's parts of me that think that she's my mom and that I can't trust her. I didn't know that until I got to know my part.

Bill: So it's amazing what IFS does. And it's, this points to

Marty: the fact that, this connect, connecting and disconnecting is going on constantly, like the job is never over. You have to stay awake and be constant, diligently checking, am I is, am I caught in a belief that's disconnecting me or am I experiencing the authentic truth?

Marty: And it's, you have to be checking all the time. It's never

Bill: over. Marty, we've gone past my hard stop. I apologize. I'm just now noticing time. So let's bring this one to an end. What would you say that you're taking away from this conversation before we say goodbye?

Marty: It's... It's a way of listening, I'm taking away of listening, like for the real true person that I'm sitting across from, as opposed to or in addition to the contrasting with.

Marty: When they're talking BS, and, and just like to be able to hear that it's going to, then, it's already started in this conversation that I can hear exactly when you're saying the truth, your truth and the truth about the world. And when you're caught up in, something else, some theory or belief or habit of mind that is, it's not the truth.

Bill: Yeah, great. And for me who am I being in this moment? If I notice that I'm feeling disconnection, some symptoms for me are I'm feeling disempowered. I'm feeling a little fear. I have parts that want to project that this that the cause of that discomfort on the other person or the circumstance or event that I'm currently involved in.

Bill: But what there is for me to do is just notice and acknowledge that I'm having this experience of feeling disconnection. And can I get curious about it and ask myself questions like who is it that I'm being right now that I'm feeling this disconnection and what can I do to feel connected again. If it feels safe enough to do and sometimes I can do that in the moment.

Bill: Sometimes I have to pull away for a while and just contemplate what's, what actually did happen. You should

Marty: do an episode on that question of what to do to get back to interconnection. I can do

Bill: that in the very next episode. In the meantime, as of today, we have recorded, I believe this is our eighth episode and we're just now launching episode one.

Bill: We hope to get one out every two weeks and to keep that schedule up. Currently you can watch and listen to our podcast on YouTube. You can listen to it on Spotify and you can listen to it on Apple and we're working on some other platforms, but just go look for not your typical leadership coaching podcast.

Bill: All right. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.