Bill: Hello Leslie. Welcome to the Not "so" Typical Leadership Coaching Podcast. I said Not "So" Typical. I'm gonna try it again.

Marty: I noticed that. Yeah. We might think about that. Leslie, actually, the name of the podcast is Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching Podcast.

Leslie: Perfect. Thank you. I'm glad. Glad to be here. Yeah.

Bill: And Marty invited you and so we've got some questions. And how about you, you and I just take turns, Marty asking her those questions. Okay.

Marty: Okay, great. Let me, do you mind if I start?

Bill: Yeah, go. Go right ahead.

Marty: Okay. So because just so the people listening know, Leslie and I have been friends for a hundred thousand years.

Marty: Wow. I've been counting and - exactly. But I honestly don't know the answer to the question. How did you get started in coaching? How did that ever

Leslie: start? Oh, that's funny. I've just had a very windy career path, really. And a degree in psychology and then I started putting professional speakers on stages because I wanted to sell ideas instead of things.

Leslie: Before that, I was selling computers. I see. Okay. And so one of our mutual colleagues, where we had met I was always behind the scenes all the time and I finally was like, I have something to offer that I'm not seeing out there with these people that I've been behind the scenes supporting and so I, with a lot of fear and it just started taking action to put myself out in front instead of in the back.

Marty: I see. Okay. Yep. That says a little bit about why you saw a need, basically. Yep. What was that need? Do you mind

Leslie: saying? And I don't mean, I think this speaks a little bit, the answer to this has to do with as well, like the self-help industry

Leslie: is a magnet for, it's about consumerism, right? And all of these products and services and books to help people get better instead of acknowledging our humanity and integrating ourselves for our own wisdom and our own power. And that's what I was seeing out there was a lot of hungry Ghost hamster wheel.

Leslie: Quick fixes and people getting engaged and spending money in a never ending cycle where they weren't fully, we, all of us in the industry, even, were not, our clients weren't fully coming to a place of wholeness and integration where they don't need us anymore.

Marty: I see. Very interesting.

Marty: So that whole industry is based on an assumption. I hear you saying like that there's something wrong we need to fix.

Leslie: Yes. And I think that's a bold statement. Do you agree? I do agree.

Marty: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You can tell by that hunger, like there's, that it's not an integrated like, Choice.

Marty: It's I need this, or I gotta do this, or somebody made me. Or like it's got that hungry feel to it. Not like a wine tasting where we're not drinking, we're just tasting, that might not be the best analogy, but that's, thank you for saying that. That's really good. And so you are about integration, like being ourselves the way we really

Leslie: are.

Leslie: Yeah. And that coaching is truly a trusted advisor relationship. It's customized, it's based on the wisdom of the person, the goals and intentions of the person. I know Martin, and probably you Bill, we have thousands of tools that we can use. So I always tell my clients, I don't know how this is gonna go.

Leslie: It's up to you, and I'm gonna bring forward what's appropriate. Based on what you are committed to. That's what the arc of coaching looks like, is a trusted advisor relationship.

Marty: Yeah. Great. Do you wanna jump in, Bill?

Bill: Yeah. So I do. Thank you. So the, you call your method, The Spiral Method?

Bill: Yes. Yes. All right. Can you explain to us the philosophy of your coaching of The Spiral Method?

Leslie: Yeah. So let me distinguish Spiral Method as a facilitation method for small groups to reach very high levels, very swiftly of emotional intelligence training community connection, collective wisdom, accessing the magic in between us and others.

Leslie: And so anyone can facilitate Spiral Method. My one-on-one coaching. Over the years I started working with groups and so Spiral Method got developed in the field doing group work. And so they're very, those are, they're really two distinct services that I offer. And Spiral Method.

Leslie: Now we are training people to be able to deliver Spiral Method. And so it's a great model for coaches out there because there's, we get a lot of credibility, more revenue and bigger impact when we have peer groups going and our clients are served more. For example, if you've got 12 of your one-on-one clients that are also in a peer group, they're the growth that happens.

Leslie: Is exponential in a group setting. So it really enhances, it makes our one-on-one work easier and we're, it's more lucrative for us and it's also less expensive for the clients.

Bill: So Leslie, I hear that The Spiral Method is a method that anybody can facilitate that you've created. Do I understand that accurately?

Bill: Yes. And you actually train people to facilitate The Spiral Method, and that's done with groups? Yes. And I loved what you had to say about the benefits of doing that. And I also understand that separately you work with individual clients. What I'm curious about is what is your philosophy when you're separately working with individual clients?

Bill: What philosophy do you employ when you're working with them? Yeah.

Leslie: I think so first of all, that they have all of the wisdom that they need. I'm not and I'm not giving them wisdom. I might be giving some education, but that they, we are decluttering so that they can get really connected to their own wisdom.

Leslie: And part of finding that wisdom or accessing that wisdom is doing shadow work. A real acknowledgement and honoring and dignifying of shame and rage and trauma and jealousy and judgment and all these things that are just part of being human such that we are at choice with what we start creating that list.

Leslie: And then, From there, building structures based on intention instead of all this automatic stuff. And I think where we get caught in the self-help industry is to just do away with all this and do the spiritual bypassing, get rid of this and go ahead and start building from here. Trying to get somewhere and it's a complete mess.

Bill: We want only light. No shadows. Exactly. Thank you very much.

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: Yep. Let me hand it back to you, Marty.

Marty: I'm curious, like what do you notice about the journey of the client that's different because of your approach? That's a good question. That's why they pay me the big books.

Leslie: Listen, exactly. Cause you're a master questioner. I would say that what my clients say about the work is that you made my life better. they calm down, they start getting, they get off the hamster wheel and start feeling more satisfied because of the integration work.

Leslie: And then, by nature of all of that work and intentionality, then their results start to go up. So most are making more money, working less hours, way more happy, and that's what they're gonna, report and that sustainable long after I leave.

Marty: Hopefully, yes, definitely.

Marty: So that's what they report. How do you think, how would you guess, you've seen other coaches, you base this approach on observing others and feeling a need to fill. What is it, how is the experience of coaching different for you than it is for other coaches?

Leslie: That's good. I love, love, love my clients and I think a lot of coaches love their clients, but I am.

Leslie: I think I, I learned a lot through Spiral Method is that facilitation, whether it be one-on-one or in a group, is one of the scariest things because the best facilitation, we have no idea what's gonna happen next. And so the magic of dancing in the moment and not having a book to refer to or, and so I have to find my own vulnerability and.

Leslie: Every interaction with clients. Find my intuition and trust myself and be succinct and learn, and know what's needed in the moment, even if it's different than the 10 things I think are needed.

Marty: Yeah. And so there's, so you deal with a lot of fear, scared you're, there's the scariness.

Marty: In being that vulnerable yourself in the relationship? For

Leslie: sure. It's more and more it's natural. It feels natural now, but in a group setting it's much more present. Like I used to be in a group, let's say, and I'm like, I have no idea where we're going.

Leslie: I don't know what to do right now. Then I'd try to fill the space. And be the smart one and say, okay, here's what we're gonna do. And now I lean back and say, so I don't know what we should do right now. What do you guys think? What are you noticing? Like that.

Leslie: And that used to be terrifying. I

Marty: can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't a leadership consultant. How do you that, I'm curious how that also then changes life, your life outside of coaching. What has that allowed for or, given you possibility in your own life, outside of your work? The ability to be with the fear and to, invite the vulnerability and to dance in the conversation to use your words.

Marty: How, where else does that impact life for you?

Leslie: First of all, it's a vacation from my life on one hand, right? Because I have to be so present and so whatever is going on in the moment or yesterday, I have to forget about. So that's a great thing. The other thing is the. I can't coach unless I am an, an ongoing learner myself, so I am the best

Leslie: coach when I'm actively in a program, when I just had a breakthrough conversation with my coach, when I took a bold action and said something, or did something that was really edgy, then there's so much more potency in. Yes. In the coaching. And then there's also the ripple effect, right?

Leslie: Like after a really good coaching call, a good day of coaching, my kids are better served when I walk outta my office.

Bill: Marty, I wanna suggest that we shift now, given the time that we have to work with.

Bill: We've asked Leslie if she'd be willing to demonstrate The Spiral Method with us or with one of us.

Bill: Okay. And both Marty, you and I agreed that we're both game and ready to be the focus of that, either one of us individually or both of us together. So let me just hand it over then, Leslie, to you. Let's target up to 20 minutes. How's that sound? Okay, great. Would you like any time with time management or do you want any help with time management or do you have it?

Bill: Nope, that's

Leslie: For The Spiral Method, usually we're groups of, five or six people up to 16. And so we're doing this with three of us. Totally appropriate, but, a different experience than if we had 16 here, but that we could do that in an hour and a half and we'll be able to do this in that time 20 minutes or less.

Leslie: And Normally we would take a moment to pause and create this sacred space, cuz this is a different conversation than what's out there. And I'll say a couple of the core agreements are to lean in and find the discomfort. Comfort zone. No learning. Don't lean too far out red zone.

Leslie: We, we halt our learning and it takes a while to get back to the kind of yellow, so we wanna stay in the yellow zone and that everything is confidential, although we're recording this. So there's a level of psychological safety that's missing since we're recording it. Okay. But normally it's all confidential.

Leslie: And we're just gonna play three games. And the first one is called Finish the Sentence. And this is First Thought. Best Thought. And we'll go Marty, Bill Leslie. So we also participate as facilitators in Spiral. Great. We'll do, let's just jump right in. And the first one, just what's what are the most let's do mind body, heart.

Leslie: So one word to describe the state of each Mind, body, heart.

Marty: Yeah. Okay. I'll go first. Mind is ragged. Body is strong and heart is wide open.

Leslie: And then Bill, you jump right in.

Bill: One word for each. Mind, busy. Heart. Oh, I skipped one. What was the second one?

Bill: Body. Body. Body. Noticing tension. Heart.

Bill: Guarded.

Leslie: Nice. My mind is, I'm full. My body is tight, and my heart is tender. Okay. What's like top of mind right now in your life or your business? It could be something exciting, it could be something stressful, just what's the first thing that you think of? Top of mind?

Marty: I'm writing a book and I'm gone back to edit the introduction. Having been to the end, I'm editing the introduction, so that's top of mind.

Bill: For me. I do a pro bono group four times a month, and today in a chat stream, I ended up with a ton of requests. For help on how to join that, that pro bono group, and I've got a tight day.

Bill: So that's the busyness of the mind.

Leslie: Yep. I volunteered at the prison, at the state penitentiary at maximum security prison all day yesterday, and it was the one of the most amazing transformational Heart connected experiences that I've had in a long time, or maybe my whole life. It was just beautiful.

Leslie: I want to go visit all the, all of them now. What is your biggest challenge right now?

Marty: I'm writing a book and I went back to that introduction.

Marty: But let me not just be funny, but it's, the challenge is not falling in, not writing another self-help book, not writing another book that falls into those categories. It's so easy to, to do, and so to stay in this other mode, like a fresh, creative mode about the topic is leadership.

Marty: Right? That's the challenge.

Bill: The biggest challenge for me, I would say right now that I'm facing is trusting,

Bill: accessing the faith that what's supposed to happen is happening and will continue to happen, and that I don't need to be in control of it. And this is regarding the development and growth of my coaching practice. Awesome.

Leslie: I think mine's similar. The remaining in an expansive, well from an expansive state being very discerning at the same time.

Leslie: And then simultaneously when I go into really small contracted states giving myself permission to go there cuz I don't like being there. But it's inevitable and they may last long. How are you growing?

Marty: I'm in a, I'm in a coaching program myself. I'm in a program. The everybody in it is a coach that we've all been coaches for two decades or more, all of us. So it's a rather advanced group. And. We're reading and talking about really challenging things. Really like the integration of spirit and results like like you were just talking about both of you in different ways. That's a real nut to crack and so this program is really challenging me in that way.

Bill: How am I growing? I, so I feel a responsibility to my young parts that. Have been burdened under the shadows of the past as they are introduced to the present moment.

Bill: I feel a sense of responsibility to provide them with information that helps them relate to the current moment. And so I get that through books and I get that through conversations and I get that through coachings and trainings. So right now my wife and I, when we go on our walks and runs in the morning, we're listening to a book called Leadership and Self Deception by the Argen Institute, and it's great.

Bill: It's just wonderful. I'm also studying to understand and to provide one of those younger parts that hates marketing to understand marketing and with a desire to find a way to get the word out about what it is that I do that fits within my own integrity and doesn't push up against my values.

Bill: I, I recently reached out to my original coach from 2011, and we have now got an agreement where he coaches me twice a month. I coach him twice a month. And I also am growing because of my relationship with Marty because we've got a similar arrangement where he coaches me and I coach him.

Leslie: Great. It's so funny. Bill, your answers are similar to mine. We should talk more. I'm, I am really integrating the younger parts of myself, the little girl the one that was left behind, the one that doesn't know how to ask to get her needs met without being really weird about it. The one that doesn't communicate clearly because of all that stuff, right?

Leslie: At 53 years old, it feels like the deepest level of this kind of integration work that I've ever done. And it's sometimes is surprising. So let's just do two more questions. A place where I'm suffering, a place where I'm suffering. One sentence.

Marty: I have a brother who has two very severe mental illnesses, and I suffer over the fact that he has to be drugged severely and live in a home while I get to go out and play and have a great life.

Marty: And I suffered horribly over the guilt of that.

Bill: Boy, that's a good, that's a hard question. Where am I suffering is the question. Yes. Yeah. Most of my suffering would have to be centered around relationships. I just was reminded in a conversation with my youngest daughter this morning that a relationship that has been severed between myself and her brother. My stepson continues to poke at me at, and it's calling some calling on me for something that I don't wanna respond to.

Bill: Yeah, thanks Bill.

Leslie: Yeah, mine, I really want a lifelong partner and Not readily available. Dating apps are awful. It's a place of trusting and still doing my inner work to have that person show up. We are gonna do two more. If you really knew me, you would know one's one or two sentences brief to the point.

Leslie: If you really knew me, you would know.

Marty: If you really knew me, you would know that I'm just like, I really love being alive.

Marty: Yep.

Bill: If you really knew me, you would know that I am spirit.

Leslie: Yeah. If you really knew me, you would know. I. I have a lot of people that depend on me, and I have a whole other part of me that is an adventure free spirit that wants to just go

Marty: to the beach alone

Leslie: and see who else shows up. Okay.

Leslie: And then let's do the way that I wanna be remembered. In a one sentence, a few words, just how, this is how I wanna be remembered. I would

Marty: like to be remembered as creative.

Bill: I would like to be remembered. I've actually given some thought to this recently because I've been to several memorial services this past few months. I would like to be remembered as generous, loving and thoughtful.

Leslie: And I wanna be remembered as a social impact leader and an amazing mother, and a lover, and a dancer.

Leslie: Okay, so that's the first game. Let's do hot seat. We'll do this real quick. Hot seat, this is Bill, I, you've played this before, but quickly, any, we are gonna, Marty's gonna go on the hot seat. We're gonna ask him any question, any topic, any intensity level that we want. This is designed to move very quickly.

Leslie: Instead of raising your hand Bill, you just ask, let's just pop questions at 'em. And Martin, you can pass or tell the truth or lie just like life. And we're practicing curiosity and there's a whole bunch more rules. But that's it for now. Questions for Marty.

Bill: Marty, why does Leslie call you Martin?

Marty: She doesn't, this is staged. She actually, she calls me Doc, but she's doing it just for the sake of the consistency in this interview. It sounds weird to me that she's calling me that and I,

Leslie: and say thank you Bill. So we close the loop. So thank you. Do you how does it make you feel when I call you Doc?

Leslie: Honestly or no? You can pass or lie too.

Bill: Oh, okay. That's an option.

Marty: No, I feel I, it feels sweet. It feels intimate, it feels honorary. That's how it feels. I like it.

Leslie: Thank you.

Bill: What else do I wanna

Leslie: know? Yeah, go ahead. What are you confronting at the core of your being around writing this book?

Marty: The book is on leadership, and I'm confronting taking the lead in the conversation about leadership in general, like being the leader of that conversation about leadership. It's very confronting to me.

Leslie: Thank you. Why?

Marty: Because I've always told myself that I was a follower or somebody who leads from behind.

Marty: It's a gentle way of saying a follower to myself. I've always said that and I hide behind my clients, even you go produce the results, I'll stay back here at the office and make sure it all gets done. This has just been the story I've told myself my whole life, and in the last six months I've realized it's a bunch of bs.

Leslie: Thank you.

Bill: Marty, what does that story protect? In other words, what are you afraid? What are you most afraid of if you succeed here?

Marty: Oh gosh. There's so many things, especially when you've observed now, like when somebody steps out into the limelight, how they get. Beat up in public. That's one thing.

Marty: And I think that might be the main thing for me, cuz it goes all the way back to when I came out to my parents and they said that's okay. We still love you, but you're gonna have a really hard life. So I have that sort of ingrained in me if you step out the limelight, people are gonna beat you up.

Leslie: And What does it take to press through that?

Marty: I really loved your using that phrase, dancing in the conversation. I have a card, laminated card I keep at my desk all the time with ways of being that are old and pa. They set up patterns of behavior that are not conducive to human and growth. And then on the other side of this black bar, ways of being that are conducive to human growth.

Marty: And the last one on the list is dancing in the conversation. So I think that's really the way I do it. It's I don't know about tomorrow, but for today, I'm gonna put this forward and see how it lands and deal with the reaction to that and just dance with it. I might have to retract it all, but for now, I'm, I'm stepping this way.

Marty: Dance.

Leslie: Thank you. Okay, we have to stop cause of time. So we're gonna go to the next, the last game, which is withholds. And this is a chance for us to. This is really a clearing the space game. It's not really a communication, although it looks like a communication. We're gonna speak to one or a couple of us.

Leslie: And again, this also has about eight rules to how to play this game well. But you guys have both played before, so we'll just start and we'll do a couple rounds. Withhold. Okay. And you're first Marty.

Marty: One thing is that we had a list of questions that we came up with. We worked on them, we sent them to you, and then when we got on Zoom, because I had them still in the email and the email was dinging, we had to turn that off. So we've been ad-libbing the questions since then, and I, it, that's just been like on my mind we're not using the questions.

Marty: We just, I'm willing to disclose that and let it go.

Leslie: Thank you.

Bill: Bill? I'm not certain that I have played this game before, but I think I get the gist. I had a client who reacted to me in a way that activated one of my parts that felt heard by her interaction with me.

Bill: And another part had me pretending like I was fine and that hurt is still with me.

Leslie: Thank you. That's a great withhold and great example of a withhold. And for the next round Bill, see if there's anything for me or. Martin that you want to speak to. Oh, okay. So this exercise is, it's a reveal and there are many different ways to play it.

Leslie: So I just wanna poke at that for a minute. I would say, Doc, my withhold I've seen you go to dark places and emerge so bright, and so when I ask about your book, it's I know without even seeing it, that you're digging deep. And that's why I asked the question because I know it, it's happening regularly and it's a beautiful thing to witness you in particular doing this deep integration work.

Leslie: Thank you. Okay, let's do another round. One more. We have one more.

Marty: So when we did the mind, body, heart Bill and you said about your heart that you felt it felt, what did you say exactly? Guarded. Guarded. Guarded. So when you said that I got guarded? Yeah. Because I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna be unguarded, and you have to be guarded, and so I just, yeah, it's set up and so there's part of me that wants to hear more and take care of you and all of that.

Leslie: And so we just say thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Great. And then it's your turn.

Bill: Leslie you and I had never met before today's conversation, and I had some preconceived ideas of what you would look like, what you would sound like, how you would talk, and none of 'em are true. And I'm so pleased to meet you.

Bill: Oh,

Leslie: thank you. Yeah. Great. Now I wanna hear what those preconceived notions were.

Marty: Yeah,

Leslie: I appreciate the mutual connection here and Doc speaks so highly of you and I can't believe we haven't met yet, so it has been a pleasure. I'm glad we got to spiral a little too. And and like I said, your answers all resonate with me. Feels like we're on very parallel path,

Bill: yes.

Bill: Thank you. Thank you.

Leslie: Okay, so those were the three games. Now we would also do a closing section. Let's do one round of closing and then I'll pass it back. What's one thing that you're noticing or aware of right now, something in your own system? Something in the group field. Just a sentence.

Marty: I'm a single man.

Marty: And most of my family has passed on, or in the case of my brother is in a home. And so for me, this is like family. This is like so delicious. Just being with the two of you, it's like being with family. Thank you.

Bill: I think this is like a, an acknowledgement. Can you, Leslie, would you mind tell me again what it is we're doing here?

Leslie: Yeah, so this is a closing round, so it's nice to put a bow on The Spiral Method because it does bring things up and which kind of an arc and we're coming down. Yeah. So anything you know, to put above, so I ask an open question. What are you noticing now? I got

Bill: it. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm noticing that I'm wanting my heart to not feel guarded.

Bill: And I'm also noticing that it is softening, and yet that feel is true. You know what's true for me is that my heart and maybe it's true that I lead with this most of the time that my heart is guarded until it, it can relax. And also that I want you to know that all of my preconceived ideas, Leslie, about you were great and this is greater.

Leslie: Thank you. I'm just noticing that I trust you, Bill because there's alignment. In your way of being and your communications and your sharing. So there's an automatic trust, and I don't, I, in all honesty, Doc has in introduced me to people that he thinks I'm gonna love automatically and I am a verse to them in some way.

Leslie: So that wasn't predictable. So it's refreshing and I look forward to more time with you. Likewise. Thank you. Great. So that was Spiral Method in a very quick nutshell.

Bill: So I'm imagining you or someone facilitating and I've actually had the experience of Marty facilitating with a group of coaches some of whom we hope to have on our podcast and have similar conversations with when we all got together for the first time was it just last year?

Bill: I believe Marty, for the first time face-to-face.

Marty: I think it was, yeah, early. It was early in the last year

Bill: in Santa Fe and the three of us guys, we got a, an Airbnb and the women stayed together in one of the other coaches' homes where she lived right there in Santa Fe. And so we were on the patio at our Airbnb and Marty introduced The Spiral Method.

Bill: And I, my recollection of that was that it was amazing. And powerful and upsetting and scary and disturbing. And now I'm imagining and so I think Marty did set some context around that saying we're all coaches. And so it's probably predictable that we're gonna go in deeper and more boldly than other groups.

Bill: I don't know if you actually said that or not, Marty, if I just made that up. But, so my question, Leslie, for you, is. I'm imagining that this is happening in corporate settings, in businesses with families. There's all kinds of different applications and yeah it seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go south here.

Bill: Yeah. What's my question when it goes south, as a facilitator, what do you do?

Leslie: Run as fast as you can. I've had, I did have one situation where I swear I wish I would've gone to the bathroom and said I'm sick. I can't continue reconvene tomorrow. The, this is the reason we have an oath in the certification program, and we take this very seriously. It's a high level of responsibility to lead these conversations and that the method is black and white.

Leslie: There are tons of tips and tricks to make sure that it doesn't go south, that are embedded in the method. So I first say that it's a lifelong practice as well, and I haven't had this go south for me and it, the, it in recent years after, maybe doing this 300 times or maybe a thousand times.

Leslie: So that's the first thing. When it does go south, this is the. The mastery and self-awareness to be able to say this is too hot right now. We're gonna cause more damage. We have to pause. This is, I think we're all human and we all like yours, pointing to Bill is going to a place of pretending that we're okay trying to backpedal and manage it.

Leslie: And that, that's not gonna do anything but make things worse, right? Is pretending. And so we have to know our own triggers to facilitate this. It's okay to start slow when people do spiral. When people are, have been certified and are gonna take this out. Go slow, take it easy, touch into those hot spaces and back off a little if needed.

Leslie: And in corporate America it's much different than a peer group of like-minded coaches or leaders or a peer group of any kind. Oh gosh. Because Joe might have just taken Susie's job or the corner office, or Bill got fired. Or, there's a whole agreement about the CEO doesn't really care about the people or whatever it is.

Leslie: Those are all embedded in the culture held together by the people. And so we have to develop a slowly, develop a trusted space so that we can freely talk about the real stuff under the rug. And if we're pushing that's why things go south.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. With just a few minutes left, Marty, what's on your mind that hasn't been asked or said?

Marty: Just on this last topic, one thing to say is that Leslie and I developed a curriculum for training people in facilitating and. It's actually very effective method sometimes to bring an issue and to treat it in this way. Spiraling takes some of the significance out, allows things to get said and facilitates moving through problems.

Marty: So I would, I don't know if Leslie would, but I would go so far to say that this would be a good place to bring problems. And let the insouciance of The Spiral Method itself help move us through them.

Leslie: Yeah, I can I give you an example of one of my failures?

Marty: Sure.

Leslie: What's all about the shadow work, right? No, the, I was working with a team, it was my first session in there and I usually do pre-interviews and all of that. And one person I had said it was a woman I had said once I set the container I don't think I said that. This is what I'm saying to you. Once we set the container, Then we can go there and allow people to go there.

Leslie: But the container has to be set and. What's happening? I wanna just do another tangent. What's happening in Spiral Method is that we're training people in curiosity, direct communication, crisp communication. We can say something in one word or one sentence and be brief and still go right to the heart of the matter.

Leslie: We're training people in listening. We're training in curiosity. I don't know if I said that already, but lots of things we're expanding our capacity for the heat, for sensation. So over time, this just keeps building on itself and the group begins holding the container. The facilitator no longer needs to be so rigorous about the container because it's getting owned.

Leslie: In this pre-call, I said you'll know when it's time to share. We get to the session. I hadn't set the container yet and she started sharing and it had a lot of emotional content and I let it go. I was like look, this is so vulnerable. This is what we want. Let's let her keep talking.

Leslie: In her emotional content, she makes some references to and to the person she's speaking with. She makes references to potential. Not abuse, but in the corporate culture of sex, whatever, I can't think of the word right now.

Marty: Harassment. Yes.

Leslie: Sexual harassment. And who she's talking to is the lawyer of the firm.

Leslie: Oh gosh. So he stonewalled, he was like, Nope, I'm not having any more conversation. And none of us knew what was going on. None of us. And then the girl's she was really upset and she's can I go to the bathroom? And I said, Nope. We are gonna stay in the heat. And Very young in my career.

Leslie: This is I've done all the, I've done all the failures for everyone so that I could teach you. Oh, thank God. How to do these things. It was awful. I went back for free the next day and had a three hour session with the two of them, and I recently ran into the CEO and she said it had nothing to do with you, but I'm like so anyway, that, yeah, we, it's about setting the container.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah. Makes sense.

Marty: Exactly. Yeah. That's, and isn't that the key to working out problems in any other context too? We need a container. There's right in which to face what's dangerous and risky. So that it can be faced if anything's possible, then anything's possible and that's not safe.

Bill: Yeah. Yep. Safety is crucial to being able to make any progress in personal transformation. We have to have awareness. We have to have safety.

Leslie: Yeah. And safety. I've been really learning this, so there's safety. The container is set outside of me so me or others feel safe to sink into it.

Leslie: But I'm really refining now at this point in my life that safety lives here. And so it's, this kind of. What's the integration and interaction between the external and internal.

Marty: Safety. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way you can be safe in almost any environment. Yep. This is a great topic we should take up, in later on in the podcast, this is one of the beautiful things about The Spiral Method.

Marty: Thank you for bringing it, Leslie, because it is such a key element to what makes coaching work, right? Even on the spiral context. And you know the, and people might wonder when we say this is not your typical coaching, is it safe though?

Leslie: And I just again acknowledge, Bill. I trust you because of that alignment, and that's part of what I'm guessing how you create psychological safety with your clients, right?

Leslie: Yeah. This alignment in our way of being, we're still the guide. We're still the one holding the container, but we're not up on a pedestal as if we know more than our clients.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great observation that you made of Bill, that alignment in him. Thank you for pointing to that.

Bill: Yeah.

Bill: Thank you. Thank you. So we're gonna wrap up now, but before we do, Leslie, I wanna give you an opportunity to extend an invitation to your services. Let folks know what you're open to and what you're offering and how they can get ahold of you.

Leslie: Thank you. The, we have the certification program so that we are, where we're teaching people to be spiral facilitators and we've got it's a two day Zoom launch. spiralmethod.com The Spiral Launch Program is a whole separate thing. Really, the first step is for people to learn how to spiral and then go have a ripple effect out there in the world.

Bill: So spiralmethod.com Okay. Then anything else, Leslie, that you wanna say before we say thank you and

Leslie: goodbye to you? No, thank you so much. I love what you guys are doing and let's do it again.

Bill: Absolutely. Thank you for joining us, Leslie. Thank you. Martin. Martin. Doc. Doc Martin.

Leslie: Bye Doc.

Marty: Thank you both. It's great to have you together.