Marty: Welcome to our podcast today. Not your typical leadership coaching. And I thought that it would be good to just maybe take a step back and really look at the, some real basics about IFS today, if you're open to that, I'd love that. Okay, great. And for those of you who haven't seen past episodes or heard past episodes, IFS stands for internal family systems. It's a therapeutic style. What do we call it? Model. And it's also used in coaching and there's a lot of overlap in there. And Bill, of course you've got some experience on both sides and you also instruct a lot of people in this field. People are coming up in the field and learning how to be of service using this model.

Bill: Let's make sure we distinguish that, what that means. I do teach a lot of people about how to use the IFS model for themselves, for their own healing and their own personal development. But the job of training people on how to facilitate the IFS model belongs to the IFS Institute.

Marty: Of course. Gotcha. Thank you for that. This is, I think a lot of us will recognize some of this language. It's gotten into the popular culture. Now. Yeah, I heard a comedian the other day, making a joke of, about his inner Napoleon, and because we all know that there's an inner child to take care of.

Marty: And also the 12 step programs. Make use of the distinction of your inner child and your inner teenager. In fact, all of that and have literature on how to develop a relationship for healing with those parts. I think it's good that we just, ask some really basic questions.

Marty: 1 of the 1st things that comes up when I've. Spoken to people about the model is they're they look a little worried. Is it safe? It sounds like I'm indulging a sort of schizophrenia inside of me to talk about all these parts. So let's start. Let's start there.

Bill: oF course, multiple personality disorder, which is now referred to as DID, and the diagnostics, DSM, is what people are scared might be true about them.

Bill: If I have parts, does that mean I have multiple personality? And does that mean that I'm insane? Does that mean I'm unstable and if, and are people going to judge me and not trust me as a normal human being if they know that I have all these parts, these fragmented pieces and parts of myself.

Bill: But it makes sense that it would be scary to think of themselves in that term, in those terms. But here's what's true evidenced by over 40 years now of experience that, starting with Dr. Richard Schwartz, who developed the IFS model, internal family systems, is that He's never had a client yet that didn't have parts.

Bill: He has parts. I have parts. At first, it's it can be difficult to distinguish that we have parts that are separate from who we think of as ourselves, but we all do. And it doesn't mean that we're crazy or insane or unstable, that we have parts. Or that we

Marty: are stirring them up, like maybe it's better that if we have them, that they be quiet.

Marty: For example, there might be scary ones in there, like voices or parts to get away from, I want to leave behind that word voices, because that takes us back to multiple personality disorder, but parts that, I don't want to stir those. There's some dragons in there. Don't, I Don't step on their toes.

Bill: Is that the case? Certainly. Yeah, there are, there is definitely that concern for a lot of people. Is it the case that there are dragons in there? We can talk more about that but it's not scary. And I'll explain that to when I look at your new background, Marty, I see you probably in the mountains of Colorado.

Bill: Is that what I'm seeing in your background? That's exactly right. And, Over your right ear is a deadfall. Yes, you can see the branches and maybe some of the roots And it reminds me of about three years ago when I was doing a camp out with a bunch of men And we went on a hike one day and it was all this, you know It was very exciting, very fun, kayaking, boating, some fishing, mostly hiking, sitting around the campfire.

Bill: It was great. One, one of the three days that we were there, we went on a hike and we went off trail and we ran into a downed log like that, that had been there probably for years. And one of the three of us, it wasn't me, it doesn't matter, but one of the three of us picked up a deadfall log.

Bill: To move it out of our path. And when he did it, it stirred up and unsettled a nest of bees that were furious. I think they were bees. They may not have been bees. They were in, they were flying insects with stingers on them.

Marty: And they had emotions. They could feel fury.

Bill: They certainly seem to.

Bill: We stirred it up. We stirred up the hornet's nest. Literally. And I think I got stung nine times. One of the guys got stung almost thirty times.

Marty: Ooh la, that's fury

Bill: all we all got stung. And these little tiny insects chased us completely. Completely back to the path and all the way, back two miles to our camp.

Bill: So because we had some concerns, what if one of us has a reaction here? We need to get back to transportation and communication as soon as we can. Anyhow, the reason I'm telling that story is because as you were telling me about the concern, what if I get in there and stir it all up and we have inner demons or monsters or dragons or something that are going to come out?

Bill: I'm looking at your background and I'm remembering it when that happened in, in an externalized way. And here's what's actually predictable about what will happen when we begin to go in, go inside and in IFS we call that doing a u-turn. And we begin to explore and get curious about what is happening in here.

Bill: If we don't know what we're doing, if we go in aggressively, if we go in with an agenda to change things, yeah, we can, we might stir some stuff up. So it's important to get some understanding of some about what it is that we are doing and using the internal family systems model. And that we don't just go in with a little bit of knowledge about that we have parts and it's the parts that are causing us to do the kinds of things that we don't like that we do in our lives.

Bill: So let's get in there and change them. Yeah, that's going to stir up a hornet's nest. Parts don't appreciate not being appreciated.

Marty: So this brings up the next question to me, which is we get into talking about it and parts will be upset. Parts will do that. We're talking about them like they're real people. Yes. And I guess that I get that's the point. But Are they? What's the difference between the thought, I should change in this regard.

Marty: And so I go into, do whatever in parts work with an agenda on just because I had a thought that I should change something. How do I know that's a part and that it has this reality status that a fleeting thought doesn't.

Bill: A fleeting thought infers that thought comes and goes. It's when we attach to a thought that we begin to be influenced by the part that initiated the thought in the first place.

Bill: Ah,

Marty: so the part is what initiated the thought in the first place. Yes. Yes. And so it's not fleeting. It's stuck there. It keeps coming back. That's what makes it a part and not just a

Bill: thought. That's right. Okay. Yeah, a thought is just one manifestation or influence of a part. Other ways that parts manifest is in emotions, in body sensations, in impulses, in apparent choices, and in how we act and react in the world. And maybe more importantly than all of those ways that I just said, also how we perceive the world. Parts influence how we perceive what's happening in our current life. It seems

Marty: like a big project when, it seems like I probably got, is there a number we can put on the part? How many parts does the average person have?

Marty: It seems like when you put, you start raising all those questions that. This is an infinite project and I don't know if I'm going to be able to keep control of it, keep track of it, and then control

Bill: it. Yeah that's an interesting and valid concern. So the parts of you that would have that concern are concerned about being in control.

Bill: That's a part that would be parts of you that want to be in control. And using the IFS model, we might get curious about that part that is concerned about maintaining control or losing control and find out. whAt is at stake for this part? What is the dilemma? What is the problem this part is trying to solve?

Bill: What's the, what is the part trying to do for you? Let me explain that just a little bit. Our parts, we were born with parts. When we were born, we were, let's just say, perfect, whole, and complete. Some people might disagree with that. We had parts before we were born? We were born with parts. HOw is that who we actually are needs a body who we actually are needs a body to survive in the world and who we are needs parts that can help operate that body and specialize in specific interests and needs and functions.

Bill: Even when we're born babies begin to take in what's going on in their external environment and they form the conditioning for how the brain is developed and the, how the non conscious stores meaning making this happened, therefore that happened, that logical one plus one is two begins to happen and it gets just embedded in the non conscious And that's very normal, and natural, and healthy, and needed in order to survive.

Bill: However, when things happen that are scary, hurtful or beg an answer that never comes, those are some examples of how parts take on roles. When that happens, when a baby, an infant, a child, a toddler, a young person is who has some dependency Has an experience that needed some support and that support didn't come and sometimes even when the opposite came when support was needed and hurt is what was delivered, then parts take on extreme roles to protect that person from being hurt again in the future.

Bill: Those are referred to as manager parts. Those are protectors, protector parts that are managers. They preemptively try to prevent hurt from happening again. So just using that as an example, we have a part that's trying to protect us from ever being hurt again. It gets activated by the circumstances of our current life again, and we relive the fear.

Bill: Of having that we have a fear that the pain that happened in the past is going to happen again now, and it influences how we feel and how we think. And now I'm forgetting the question that I was trying to explain.

Marty: We're looking at if paying attention to these parts, we might lose control

Bill: somehow.

Bill: Oh, I see. I see. Oh, yeah. So we, there might be a manager that's concerned about losing control because that's that manager's job. Manager's job is to keep control, to stay in control and not to lose control because at some point in the past. Some meaning making occurred. Maybe that meaning making is held by the manager that says, if we lose control, we're going to get hurt.

Bill: Therefore, my job is to make sure we never lose control again. Therefore, when IFS comes along, and it looks like that would have us be completely out of control. This manager is not going to let that happen and use whatever strategies that can to make sure that we don't go inside where there's no control.

Bill: And maybe a manager instead would focus, have you focus on the outside. Let's control something on the outside, like my partner. Sorry, go ahead. That's a, no, yeah.

Marty: I'm just wondering if there are manager parts, protector parts, what other kind of

Bill: parts? tHere's two kinds of protectors.

Bill: There's the manager that preempts. Pain from happening again or hurt or fear. anD then there's the reactive parts that scramble in first responder type parts that want to bring order, bring the system back into order again. We refer to those as firefighters.

Marty: Do they know, do the parts know that I'm in charge?

Marty: Or am I in charge? Are they in charge? Is one of the, is the manager of managers inside me in charge of me?

Bill: Think of the seat of consciousness. What does that mean to you when I say the seat of consciousness? I

Marty: Know there's a book in the past by that title, but I don't, I didn't read it.

Bill: I didn't know there's a book by that name but think of it this way. If there's

Bill: the energy the consciousness that is looking at you and speaking with you through my eyes and my mouth, that, that is that seeing that perceiving and that communicating is happening. Thanks to the influence of whoever's sitting in the seat of consciousness. Okay. And you might just say, aren't you the one sitting in the seat of consciousness?

Bill: And the answer is yes, of course. But who is the you that you're referring to? It might be my true authentic self who's fully resourced and present and seeing things relevantly and accurately through my eyes and speaking in a way that's not influenced by an unresolved past. A fully resourced adult man consciousness.

Bill: Where does the

Marty: divine fit in here is the divine even more. I'm thinking of the seat of consciousness. I'm, I feel, I'm like a little minnow in the ocean of consciousness. The seat of consciousness is couldn't be in me. Must be someplace.

Bill: Let me use a different term because I'm not really pointing to the greatness.

Bill: Okay,

Marty: then I understand. I understand what you're saying. Then it's it's if I could try and reflect back what I understanding it's the 1 who's noticing that there is a manager part. The 1 who's noticing that's the seat. I am the seat that's

Bill: noticing them. Yeah. And in IFS, who we truly are at our essence and our core is referred to as self with a capital S.

Bill: . And those that don't know about IFS and I was one of these who first heard the authentic self referred to as self had a problem with that because I had always associated self with self-centeredness, selfishness. Like ego, but that's not what IFS is talking about. They refer to self in the IFS model.

Bill: We refer to the essence, the core, the purity of that core as self with a capital S. And the way that Richard, Dr. Richard Schwartz, who developed this model, got this terminology was from his clients. His clients were saying, he would say. What part of you is that? And the client might say, Oh that's me.

Bill: That's myself. And so he just began to use self with a capital S to designate that true. So when, so think of it more in terms of maybe this is easier now. Seat of self, who is sitting in the seat of Oh, okay. When self is sitting in the seat of self, then I, when myself. Capital S self is sitting in my seat of self and my perception of my external world is seen through the eyes of self and seen accurately.

Bill: For what it is absent all the meaning making that my parts would attach to what's happening out there when one of my parts is sitting in the seat of self, even just a little bit, it changes how I see the world because now meaning making is attached to it. An example would be a client that I have.

Bill: Let's say a couple of months ago that I was talking to that said my sibling is picking on me. And then he had all this proof that a sibling was picking on him. And what I wanted to help him to do is to recognize that the proof was coming from a part of him who already had decided that's what is true in the world that siblings pick on me.

Bill: So no matter what the sibling said or did was going to filter and it was going to fit. He was going to feel bullied.

Marty: Does it ever happen the other way around? Could a part be invited onto the seat of consciousness and have this realization like, oh, I've been making meaning and. Lose its limitations and become part of you and in an integrated way.

Bill: So you, the question that you asked and the way you formulated the question begs different answers. Can a part be invited into the seat of self? Yeah, that's called intentional blending. So when a part brings its influence and whether we're consciously aware of it or not, that's called blending.

Bill: I'm blended with a part. I'm feeling angry. I'm blended with a part that feels angry. And if I can unblend from that part, the part might still be angry, but I'm not. Yeah. Okay. Because I've reclaimed my seat of self. Yeah. When the part is sitting in the seat of self, I'm feeling angry. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with feeling angry.

Bill: But if I'm influenced by that anger and that begins to block up off my clear perception of reality, then I'm gonna respond from the anger and which is probably born in the past sometime rather than from the clarity and the wisdom and the other types of resources that self will respond from.

Bill: I'll react from part rather than respond from self.

Marty: And does it ever happen that when invited into the seat of consciousness that or into the true self. That a part will give up its meaning making give up. It's linked to the pad. Become enlightened. So to

Bill: speak, parts do give up their attachment to the past when it makes sense for them to do.

Bill: So simply inviting them into the seat of self early. We'll do that. If a part can see through the eyes of self, then yes, they're going to be enlightened. That's what I thought. But They can't see through the eyes of self until they can let go of the filter that they bring into. Yeah,

Marty: I see. How does one

Bill: get started?

Bill: And there's so much more to say too, so much more to say about it. Could I just cover a few other major points, just principles, basic fundamentals of the IFS model? Let's hear it. Yeah. Human beings are a self with parts. Parts aren't bad or good. They're just part of who we are. Parts have intentions.

Bill: Protector parts have intentions. And it's always to protect. They, the strategies that they use to protect may not work very well. They may actually cause a lot of problems in our lives. And in fact, when somebody comes to coaching, they come to coaching because they've got some problems they want to solve.

Bill: They may, they might have this grand vision of the way they want their lives to look, but they can't realize that vision because they've got problems that they haven't been able to solve. Very likely, the problems that they're trying to solve are problems that are caused by parts. So that, that, that seems like a dichotomy.

Bill: Now we have parts that have very positive intentions to help, and yet here they are causing problems in our lives.

Marty: The people in my life, there are people it, like in the external world too, they think they're helping, but it's causing problems. .

Bill: A good example of that is, is the person who's always got advice for you on how you can fix the problem that you have.

Bill: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's the most helpful thing that they can do, but. Often getting advice from somebody that you haven't asked for advice from lands as condescending and you think I didn't think of that that kind of thing. The same

Marty: thing. We have to, I have to remind myself, they, the parts have partial views of the truth.

Bill: That's right. That's a great way to say it. Yeah. Many of our parts are stuck in the past. Those parts of us who have taken on extreme roles are still stuck back in the past. That in those circumstances, that generated the need for those extreme reactions to those circumstances. So those circumstances still sit in us, held by our parts unresolved, incomplete, and until those parts are helped to resolve and complete where they got stuck and be released into the present moment.

Bill: They will continue to do their jobs, even though they too see that they're not doing them very well. Part might be absolutely devoted to making sure that I never get exposed to humiliation again, because that's what I was raised in. I was raised in just one sarcastic, humiliating remark after the other.

Bill: That's the way I was disciplined and taught. I had many parts that were born from that, that took on extreme roles to make sure that nobody ever humiliated me again. One part, the solution for one of the parts was to make sure that I played small and invisible. Nobody ever saw me. If nobody ever saw me, they couldn't pick on me.

Bill: Other parts developed even a more vicious humiliating strategy so that if anybody struck out at me, I would strike back even hotter and they wouldn't dare do that to me again. Other parts decided to humiliate me to myself before anybody else would so that I could preempt giving anybody anything to work with.

Bill: Hey, that's making sense. Yeah. Now imagine those three parts coming into my adult life and I'm looking around for a partner And they're running my life for me what I Have now a new part that's looking for a romantic partner and along with that hand in hand comes this part that says But we're not gonna let anybody humiliate us.

Bill: Okay, we're gonna be invisible. We're not gonna take any risks I don't dare, I don't dare be affectionate with this person, because what if they don't like it? And then they say something that would be hurtful. Even though I just really am into this person, but I'm never going to tell them.

Bill: I'm never going to show my affection, because that's too risky.

Marty: Especially around intimate things like that. Oh, what? You could be knocked over with the humiliation. Humiliation, yes,

Bill: exactly. Yeah, the risk is just too great. The risk for unhealed wounds of humiliation, for example, are too great to allow me to get close to anybody.

Bill: It's just, it just fillets me open and leaves me vulnerable to being hurt. And even the kindest and most loving person in the world will say something that can be interpreted as hurtful, and now the drama begins. Parts are trying so hard to protect us, and yet they usually, our protector parts are trying so hard to protect us, and yet they often will produce exactly the opposite result of what they're trying to accomplish.

Bill: Their intentions are great, but the impact is usually negative or dysfunctional because they're operating in a different dimension of time that no longer exists. They're trying to solve problems that no longer exist. Yeah,

Marty: that's, that seems to me the key is they're working on problems that aren't around anymore.

Marty: Yes, and thereby misrepresenting right misrepresenting the present. Look a little trigger doesn't mean this is mom yelling at you. Like, when you were a little boy, this is your boss asking you to redo this report different set of

Bill: circumstances. So let me get to your question. I'm noticing we've got just a little bit of time left.

Bill: Your question is where do you start? There's a couple of ways to answer that. Where do you start depends on what how resourced you are, how much time you have, how committed you are to learning about IFS and what's your motivation for doing so. So a good motivation for using the IFS model is that you're hurting and you're tired of it.

Bill: You're suffering and you don't want to anymore. You, life isn't as workable as you'd like it to be, like you're caught up in automatic patterns that you, that are predictable and you see them coming and you still can't dodge them. You still can't find a way out of them. Those are all really good reasons to start using IFS.

Bill: You may have parts, someone that's considering using IFS may have parts that say, I'm never going to therapy. I went to therapy before and it didn't work, or I'm never going to therapy because therapy means I'm crazy or there's something wrong with me. Those parts would have to let you go to therapy.

Bill: Somehow those parts that object would have to be willing to let you go to therapy and it wouldn't make, if it doesn't make sense for them to let you go, then you won't, you're not going to go. You would have, you could make yourself go. And if another part said, no, damn it, we're going to go. I don't care what you think about it.

Bill: Now we've got this inner conflict. You might force yourself into therapy and it might work that way. So a lot of people have resistance to therapy. And if that's you, then consider that there are coaches, practitioners out there that are like me, that are also trained in the IFS model. And we can help you to learn about IFS.

Bill: In fact, I've got an introduction to IFS group that I do. And there's, I'll always have one starting up sometime in the next three or four months. But if you want to start using IFS on your own, I would invite people to join us in our free pro bono group that I offer four times a month called Parts Work Practice.

Marty: And how would I go about getting into that Parts Work Practice? Go

Bill: to my website. Bill Tierney coaching. com and look for parts for practice and

Marty: Tierney is BILL T I E R N E Y

Bill: and you can see it on my nameplate there. Bill Tierney. So it's BillTierneyCoaching. com and then once you get there on the menu, you will find parts for practice and it'll tell you all about the practice group and how to join.

Bill: That's a no cost, no obligation way to get started. And then if you want to just practice it in your own life, there's some workbooks out there like Bonnie Weiss, W E I S wrote a book called Self Therapy Workbook. And it's filled with exercises that you can use to practice to get to know your own parts and to learn about the IFS model.

Bill: And then as you're just walking around in your everyday life, the way to get started is to notice when your parts are activated. Notice when you feel upset. Notice when you maybe have a, an involuntarily an involuntary emotion or thought or body sensation or impulse or reaction that took over you.

Bill: That is a part. When they hijack you, when they take over your reactions to life, that's a part. When that happens, just number one, acknowledge that you're being influenced by a part. Number two, acknowledge the part that influenced you. And all that looks like is a high part that's influencing me. High part that's making me feel angry right now, I see you.

Bill: And number three ask the part, is there room for me here too?

Bill: That will help the part of you recognize, Oh, I'm not on my own here that maybe there's some help. Maybe, and it's a compassionate response to the parts. It's different than stop making me so angry part. Stop making me treat my wife that way. That will not work, but getting interested in the part and saying, hi, I see you.

Bill: I see how you're influencing me. I recognize that what I'm feeling right now is what you feel. That's why I'm feeling it. I want to say, I want you to know I'm here and I see you and I just have one question for you. Can I join you? Is there room for me here too?

Marty: I see. And if the part says no.

Bill: And the part says no. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You might, you might need some help in learning how to unblend from parts. Unless a part is willing to unblend from you and make a little bit of space, you're not going to be able to make a difference. That

Marty: was, this is a topic maybe for another whole podcast episode because that is something that, that I run into in my coaching practice because all coaching is very good.

Marty: Tries to get us in relationship to our own thoughts and feelings. I, this is a particularly powerful model for doing that. But I, I have that experience with clients. Over the years, who I don't know what I'm thinking. I don't know what I feel, like I, people, some, for some people, it's very hard to get in touch with those.

Marty: No, that is me reacting. That's not some part of me. That's me. So that, that unblending piece, I think we could spend a whole episode on that.

Bill: We certainly could. We could demonstrate it. We can demonstrate different ways to do it. I could, Marty, I could give you a set of questions for you to ask me and show you how just having you ask the questions would help me to unblend.

Bill: From parts that I'm blended with.

Marty: Yeah. Okay. So we got our agenda for the next episode set. Very good. Yeah. Anything you want to say about

Bill: IFS? Yeah, I'll say a couple things. I was in a conversation this morning with someone who's been on the path of what she has thought of as recovery for a long time.

Bill: I think 12 years. Someone that had an addiction to alcohol and in the particular 12 step program that she goes to, she's been trained to call herself an alcoholic. And she heard me say, and then asked me about it today. I, she said, Bill, I heard you say that abstinence and recovery are not the same thing.

Bill: And yeah, I said that's I did say that she said, Can you say more about that? I said certainly,

Marty: I thought I was recovered, but maybe I'm just absent. And

Bill: that's it. That's right. So my story is that I was abstinent for 22 years and a proud member of this 12 step program and getting all kinds of accolades and pats on the back for my length of sobriety.

Bill: I Had abstinence and so I would sit in meetings and people would be bowing down to me because of my length of sobriety and inside I felt like a can of worms, like if they only knew. I felt more like a fraud sitting there in an AA meeting. And I was trying not to say a, oh I said it, I was sitting there feeling like a fraud in that meeting because people were admiring me for my length of sobriety.

Bill: And yet I felt more dysfunctional than I ever had. Wow.

Marty: Oh my gosh.

Bill: Something huge was missing and I'd known for a long time that something was missing. And when I first discovered the work of Byron Katie. At the work. com and began to learn how to actually go inside and do a U turn and get curious and interested and get some answers by going inside, then I, that is the day that I entered into recovery and what I was recovering was my true self and what I was recovering from was the trauma that alcohol was helping me to cope with.

Bill: That's another topic, I'm sure.

Marty: Yeah. I'm just, just to tap back into the full circle of where we've come from here, we started with fears about the safety and controllability of doing this kind of work. And what I hear you saying now resoundingly is that this is the path to recovery, healing health.

Bill: It certainly has been for me. When I had been using Byron Katie for 15 years by the time I discovered IFS. As Byron Katie had been for me, IFS, just 10 times to my recovery it just, it was, it's been an amazing difference. And every single time that I use the IFS model to help unblend from apart, learn from the part and then unburden it from its past.

Bill: I'm changed again, permanently. The changes that occur as a result of the IFS model are permanent. They bring about lasting change. It's not instant and sometimes it's not fast, but it's lasting,

Marty: right? It's not flash in the pan. It's not a temporary fix. It changes who you are going forward.

Marty: That's

Bill: right. That's right. And I, and we could talk about this for the next five hours, just how delighted I am with the differences and tell you one example after the other. Okay.

Marty: Let's, we'll complete the podcast and keep talking about it then

Bill: for now. Thanks for joining us for not your typical leadership coaching podcast. Thanks for joining us. Thanks,

Marty: Marty. Bye.