Difficult People

Bill: Difficult people. That's what we want to talk about

Marty: Yes, difficult people. We all know a couple, don't we?

Bill: Man, do. We do. I've got a lot more experience with difficult people than I like. I'm a lot better at it. They're not as difficult as they used to be. Not because they've changed, but because I have.

Marty: Interesting to notice.

Bill: Uh huh. Well, and I've really been thinking about this a lot. And then your newsletter came out this morning and the name of the newsletter is Difficult People. Perfect. got to read this. And then I read the first things on, on your article. You, you say, whom are you making wrong? Whom are you withholding from? Like, information, acknowledgement, forgiveness, gratitude. Who are you attempting to convince? Who are you trying to get to do something? That's a, that, that's a great beginning to an article right there. Now let's, let's have it be the beginning of this conversation. This is Dr. Martin Kettle. newsletter that I'm just talking about, as well as couple of books. The most recent one, Leadership is Relation. By the way, I just finished listening to the money chapter. What chapter is that in your book? 10 and now you're, uh, you're, uh, you've moved on. I think I'm on chapter 11 or 12 right now. Gosh, I'm enjoying your book.

Marty: Oh, that's so sweet.

Bill: And in fact, at the bottom of your article, you quote yourself. And that's going to be in my newsletter on Friday, the, the, the, the very same quote. Nothing can change if we don't first understand and accept what's so the way it is. Now that would be enough for a great quote just right there. But then you go on, you'll know when you've truly understood someone except and accepted her the way she is because that's when she will start to change naturally. And in parentheses, uh, she may not change the way you wanted, but she changes end of parentheses. And then you final, you finalize the quote with she changes precisely because she's been heard. She no longer needs to assert herself in the same way. That's from, uh, page, pages 135 and 136 of Leadership is Relation. You've also written, listen till you disappear. And your website is that, isn't it? Listen,

Marty: The website is listening is the key.

Bill: listening is the key. uh, yeah, let's take it away. You wrote the article. Let's get going. Yeah.

Marty: Well, as you read that, I was reminded, I hadn't thought about this when I wrote it, but I was reminded of my very first experience, um, with that phenomenon of being so well heard that my life changed. You know, I was on this course to be an academic, you know, I, I have this, uh, deep love of deep questions and, and I, I had gotten a PhD in philosophy and, um, but I didn't, I couldn't see a future in it. You know, I like the subject matter. I do it all the time still, but I, when I'm not, you know, doing podcasts or my coaching work, I love to read philosophical stuff and think about it and, and I have a lot of writing on it, but I couldn't see myself, you know, Living my life in that, in the academic community and, and doing that kind of work because it's, it turns out it's rather lonely work. You're always alone, except for that one hour that the students are there in front of you. And that's glorious. But then they go off to, you know, Party with their, you know, sorority brothers or fraternity brothers and sorority sisters. So I was, you know, I was like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do with my life? And I was explaining to a friend, Bob was his name. It's still his name.

Bill: That's the killer's name.

Marty: And, and he, he asked really good questions like, well, you know, what else can somebody with your training do? What, what else would interest you? And he listened to me, not just once, but at several sittings, you know, and really got. Really got what I was dealing with and the dilemma, um, and, um, and, and he, he, you know, after days of, of this, he, he's, he finally sort of summarized in one sentence. He said, well, it sounds like Marty, you want, you are an intellectual who wants to make a difference in the world. And I was just, it was just like, somebody shot me right in the third eye. Like, boom. Yeah, that's it. Oh my gosh. And from that moment on my whole life jumped tracks. Now I was on this other track called an intellectual making a difference in the world. I didn't know what that would look like. You know, we're headed off in a new direction, but I don't know what the destination looks like. But it was like, it was a life altering moment. I was so gotten by him, so understood, so well heard. And so, um. That was the first time that I experienced this very phenomenon that I wrote that paragraph about.

Bill: You changed because you had been heard,

Marty: Mm hmm. I

Bill: and you no longer need it.

Marty: couldn't help but change, like, all of that sort of, you know, uh, cranky, you know, figuring out ness was gotten. Like, I didn't do, I didn't need to do it anymore. I knew what, who I was, like, in a new way. Mm hmm, Mm, Mm, Right. Mm hmm, Mm hmm, Mm hmm, Mm hmm.

Bill: about presence listening, reflected back, me, when it's happening for me, to know myself in a way that I couldn't otherwise know myself in. I'm at a transition in my book right now. I'm transitioning from the 19 year old kid who the reader or listener of the book has learned about and probably likes maybe feel sorry for he's even admiring and impressed by some of the things and now I'm I'm shifting into the next nine years of my life where I'm not really very proud of myself. For the way that it went and, uh, you know, I've got this, I've got this writing coach and I've got a publisher and both of them essentially are saying absolutely right. Your message say what you want to say. However, keep in mind, you've got a reader who wants to come along for the ride. And so what do you tell them? How much do you tell them? and, and so I, I just started a couple of days ago writing part two of my book in a real rough way. Like, I don't know if this is going to make the book or not, but I need to write this and say it, get it down on paper. Just, just to have the paper reflected back on me. And, and, uh, so I started writing and one of the things that I said was, If, if I, the current version of me could, could have a conversation with that 19 year old version of me, I believe that what I would do is not give advice at all. I think what I would do would be to listen. And, and I would listen using the same listening skills that I've developed as a coach, and especially tuned as an IFS practitioner. And would just ask those kinds of questions. Oh, that's interesting. 19 year old Bill Tierney. It's interesting that you, you think this particular way. Like for example, I might ask My 19 year old self. What do you think about yourself right now? What is, what's your, what's the deepest, darkest thing you don't want anybody to know about you? And, and, and what is it you, you might be afraid that would happen if someone found, found out? Those kinds of questions would have to change me at 19 years old. If I could tolerate them. If I could be in the space long enough to actually let the question sink in and give it an honest effort to answer. So it's, I love that we're having this conversation right now because I, I believe it can be and almost always is transformational when Someone can engage, be engaged in such a way that the listener is so present that the speaker hears themselves.

Marty: Yes, yes, that's, that, that would be, you know, constant renewal, constant, um, re presencing, right, of, of self, um, and, by the way, I just, you know, I, I wanna promote that practice for our reader, our listeners, um, the writing things down. Writing down your thoughts so that you can see them and reflect it. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it makes a huge difference. In fact, you know, if you're talking to some part like your younger self, it helps to use the non-dominant hand for that other right than than the you. That's, that's leading the conversation. Um, I just finished a two year study. With a group of seven other people of what, what it's like to relate to your younger parts, it's, and we use the workbook called the loving parent guidebook, where you get to be the loving parent of your younger parts. And one of the techniques that they taught that is used constantly in that book is this non dominant hand writing where you, you know, you, you're, You ask the question or you lead the conversation with your dominant hand. For me, it's the right and then you respond in in the hand that it's more awkward to write in and somehow that helps draw out those more awkward thoughts that you that you want to get in touch with. It's it's a brilliant device. It's very effective and even if you don't do the non dominant piece of it. It's always good to write your own thoughts. Journaling is is transformational. Just being able to see your own thoughts, um, maybe, maybe even coming back to them and reading them the next day or a month later and seeing that, oh, that's how I was thinking about it. It's, it's, it's a very good practice.

Bill: It is, and I've had some great experiences with it myself. I haven't gone through that workbook, which is the Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families workbook. Isn't that, is that correct?

Marty: Yes. It's from the world organization for ACA. Mm

Bill: I recently had, uh, an experience where I, I followed a process and I'll try to think of the name of the book and then share it in show notes. But, the suggestion was to spend an hour, at least once a week and, and, but no more than three times a week. And just to ask the next question that you'd like, you'd like to have clarity about

Marty: hmm. Mm hmm.

Bill: could be something as simple or it could be something like business related.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: What is it that I need to do to expand my reach in my business?

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: Well, now, now take, take, I don't know, whatever it is, 30 minutes or so, and then just write and then wait until the next idea comes and then write some more and then wait till the next idea comes and write some more. And I did this just one time while reading and listening to this book. and came up with a complete marketing plan for my business. That worked very, very well not have happened had I not given at the time to just really consider, and so it's not my, my wounded child that that's answering those questions in this case, and it's not my. My loving adult, uh, parent, the internal parent that's, that's answering or asking, just, it's just me

Marty: Sure.

Bill: calling on different parts of myself to get creative and who knows what energies I'm tapping into inspiration guides. Who knows? I don't, I don't

Marty: Just even more mundane use of writing. Um, if I write down my grocery list,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: I can leave it home, but I will remember it because I had written it down. Whereas if I don't write it down, I'm just like, yeah, I, I look at all this stuff I need and I go to the grocery store. I, I don't remember what it's, you know,

Bill: That's how I tried to cheat in Spanish.

Marty: I say How

Bill: I didn't trust myself to be able to remember the Spanish words for the English

Marty: Uhhuh

Bill: And the test, of course, was here's these English words. What are they in Spanish? And so, um, I would take, know, 30 minutes and look up these words and write down whatever the English word was and then write down the Spanish word. And I'd write them really, really tiny so that by the time I was done, it was on a little piece of paper that's about two inches by two inches, folded up and stuffed away in my pocket.

Marty: Oh, oh. There

Bill: So that when, when I was tested at school, I could pull that out and study it discreetly and not get caught and get all the answers. Right. I never had to pull it out of my

Marty: you go. Right? That's right. Mm-hmm

Bill: I tried to cheat.

Marty: So, right. Yeah. It, it, it, there's ano, it involves a, a whole other part of the nervous system. You get it through you. That information in an, in an, in another way than just seeing it or just thinking it. Right. And that then it's very helpful to, to write. But anyway, she, we should get back to our topic,

Bill: I was just thinking the same thing. Uh, difficult people. Now, what is everything that we've been talking about? If anything, have to do with difficult people in the point that you were driving home with your newsletter.

Marty: right. Um, well, the tendency that I'm pointing to at the very beginning that you pointed out is to, we make that, we make that challenge or difficulty, we make it wrong. We make it other is the main thing. We make it other. That's not me. I'm, I'm right. And she's wrong or, you know, Yeah. He's got a problem, not me, right? And so then, then there, you, you, you're not listening anymore. You're not understanding. You're just separating from, and so all, all of the. All the potential to to get on the same page is lost, right? Even even even if you wanted to convince them of your point of view, you're not gonna it's not gonna happen when you're you're making them unable to understand you.

Bill: Now, why would you do that? Why? Why would you make it difficult for them to understand you?

Marty: Well, I think there's, there might be a number of, a number of conscious reasons, like, you know, because I am right, you know, because, because I think it has to go this way, because it's always been done this way, like, there are a number of conscious reasons, but I think the sort of unconscious reason, which is hard to face. Sort of bad news is that they're reflecting a lack in us. There's something that, you know, we are not, it starts with not being willing to understand them, not being willing to get in their world. Um, I just watched an, a great example of this. I think it's just episode number three of the show, parenthood. So I just started watching this and, and right at the beginning, you know, you meet this family and they have an autistic child. They don't know he's autistic yet. And they, they're just, you know, like trying to get him to be like them.

Bill: Right.

Marty: And it's just not working. And so finally they get him, he does get diagnosed and the, you know, the parents were like, okay, so what do we do? How do we get them to change? How do we fix this? And the doctor's just like, Hmm, that's not the way it works. You gotta get in his world first, if you want any hope of bringing him into yours. And then the episode ends with, because the little boy, he insists upon wearing this pirate costume all day long, to school, and to church, and everywhere he goes, and he carries this big cardboard Sword that he's made around and slashes it around in the air and everything. And so the episode ends with the dad now wearing a pirate costume.

Bill: Oh, that's great. That's great. That's makes me want to watch it. Where are you watching it?

Marty: On Netflix.

Bill: I'll have already put a link for that in there too.

Marty: So that's the thing. I think the reason that we would do it is that we're not willing to face that part of ourselves that is lacking, that is distrustful of the world out there, or that is impatient with the world out there, or there's, there's something going on in us. And so we project the wrongness onto them. Right. And the point is that we are all one, and we, you know, we have, we all have a certain degree of autism. We all have a certain degree of, uh, you know, whatever it is, we're, we're, we're putting on others. And that's the hard part is to admit that, and to dig into that, and to be willing to accept ourselves as we are. Imperfect so that we can, you know, accept others and their imperfections too. Well, I

Bill: the time for this to explore some examples of what makes difficult people difficult. What understand what I'm saying? Why, why would I consider someone difficult? and the first one, I'll, I'll get us started. I think the first thing would be if someone disagrees with me. That, that generates some internal reaction that, that's difficult for me. It's not that they're difficult. It's just that my internal reaction to them is difficult. And we may find that that's the case with every example we think of. But, so number one, they disagree with me. Can you think of, of, uh, another one? Let's just play popcorn and go back and forth here. So, your turn.

Marty: don't know if this is a, uh, uh, you know, a version of what you just said, but I don't know how to deal with them. Like they're, they're like, uh, I was talking to a client today who was Perplexed with how to deal with a husband who soon as he retired, just decided to spend his whole life scrolling through his phone and smoking weed. And she's just like, I don't know what to do. You know,

Bill: here's an example of her husband, for her, was a difficult person.

Marty: her husband was a difficult and it's because she just like, I, At a loss. I'm at a loss, which is very revealing way to put it. Right. That's exactly what I'm saying is

Bill: So, so people that put us at a loss, like we don't know how to respond.

Marty: right.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah, you know, like bullheaded people I'm thinking of a Boss I used to have when I worked at Citibank in New York City many many years ago before I ever discovered Coaching I was a temp on Park Avenue on at Citibank And, um, and my boss was just like so bullheaded. I was like, uh, you won't talk to me, you won't reason with me. You don't make sense to me. I was at a loss.

Bill: All right. Someone with, uh, so bullheaded people, I would say people who, um, don't clearly communicate. Unclear communications makes things difficult,

Marty: Yeah, or lack of communication, right?

Bill: unclear or lack of communication.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And maybe this is enough to, to do a little exploring with like, what is it about these different elements that we've described unclear or no communication or lack of communication, bullheaded people, people who in the case of the woman whose husband is retired now and scrolling and smoking pot all day long. What is it about that, that has her at a loss? Uh, what, what occurs to me is that she, he is, he's not meeting her expectations. He's not showing up the way she wants or needs him to. doesn't know how to manage that.

Marty: Correct.

Bill: it creates an internal confusion for her.

Marty: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Bill: This is not the guy that I married. This is not what I expected. This is not he said he would, not, not what he's agreed to.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Given who it is that I'm committed to being in this marriage, how do I respond to this? And I'm at a loss. I don't know. How do I both be kind and loving and confront this?

Marty: Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I was going to take it in a different direction. I'm going to stay with your question right now. Are we getting at what?

Bill: what is it that makes what's difficult about difficult people, I guess, is the really, really the question that I, that I'm curious and interested

Marty: Yeah, well, I don't know if this is, you know, the gentleman that I quote, Michael Stone, in his book, Yoga for Life Out of Balance, You know, he, he gives a lot of examples to of, of this sort of, um, phenomenon. And, you know, I think it's, his point is that it's always pointing back to, to our, our own inability or incompetence or. You know, lack of, lack of some kind. Right. And it, and so it, it's, it's much easier to, to, rather than embrace that, you know, we are our first, our fir, our knee reaction is to put it on them. I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for. Where you looking for something else? Mm-hmm

Bill: no, no. That's, that's certainly part of it. I w I was thinking, as you were telling me about that, of, uh, an instance, an example of that, that just happened. Recently in a coaching session where a client is telling me that they had produced a piece of art and someone asked them, what's the meaning of it? And if you're an artist, and this is the way I related to it, I used to identify as a, as a musician. played a lot of guitar and then composed a lot of songs to probably, I don't know, 30 or 40 songs over the years.

Marty: Wow. Mm-hmm

Bill: I was composing those songs, what I loved the most about it was the music of it. However, song also had a set of lyrics that matched the music. And that was fun too, but it wasn't nearly as fun as actually creating the music and then getting my fingers on the guitar and to, to do exactly what I wanted them to do. And then being inspired for the next movement part of it and what I wanted that to sound like. That whole creative process was just amazing.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: I was doing it, it didn't mean anything.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: that I was having that I absolutely loved and, and enjoyed and, and just coincidentally, some other people that happened to be listening liked it too. So this one, and that's the way I related to this woman who created this piece of art and then had this person, person who, the way that she, she described it, this essentially was in her face and, and insisting that she tell her what the meaning of her piece of art was. So for her, the person that was insisting that she defined the meaning behind her art, was a difficult person.

Marty: Yes. Mm-hmm

Bill: And as she was telling me about this. I wondered, because I can relate people, you know, how, at how nervous I would feel when I knew I was being scrutinized for my art. Um, I felt vulnerable. I felt fear that I was going to be about to be criticized

Marty: Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh

Bill: feedback from this other person was going to mean something about me. And, and, uh, so I just began to imagine if I didn't have parts of me. Activated in situations like that, where, where they, they would rise up and want to protect me. And if I was purely in self, it was a completely self led when someone comes in and asks me for something like that. How might I respond? And, and what occurred to me was I would respond. Honestly, authentically and with curiosity for them, like, wow, you're, I'm, you're occurring to me as someone that's really, really pressuring for this particular answer. What is it that, know, I might, I may just ask what, what is it that you're asking me? And what's important to you about, about your question?

Marty: huh.

Bill: it doesn't seem that like anything I'm offering is, is satisfying you. So now that person would probably view me as a difficult person. Thank you. If, if, if in fact, maybe not, they may, uh, that, that they would no longer be difficult for me because now I'm interested and curious about what's happening over there with that other person. That's, I just wanted to share that.

Marty: No, I think that's right at the core of this. Um, um, like in political conversations and I don't want to have one now, but as an example, and there are some people with whom, you know, I can sit down and say, look, I'm of this point of view and you're of that point of view, but I know that you're a great person and wise and, you know, have a big heart, and I am too. So let's, let's look at this. How come we've come to such different points of view? And then there are other people, you know, it's just like, no, you believe that? There's no way we can even talk,

Bill: Yeah,

Marty: right?

Bill: Exactly.

Marty: So it's that, you know, that, that recognition that we're, we're all God's children. Come on, you know, let's, let's start there, right? I, I know that you must have a good reason for wanting what you want. And let, let me try and understand that better and have you better understand why I have my position. And that's, that's how progress gets made.

Bill: Absolutely. But something that you just shared with me reminded me of something that happened this morning as I was scrolling through on my phone. I want to read you something and I, and I just want you to notice what happens inside and maybe the listener can listen to this and notice what happens inside for them as well. You brought up the political conversation and you don't want to have that political conversation right now, neither do I, but something that you just pointed out, um, has me want to share this experience with you because it's so interesting. All right, here we go. Here's the post. I know not everyone likes him or thinks he's the right choice, but the fact is more people voted for him than anyone else. He's clearly the right choice and is an absolute legend in his professional career. This man has been a hero to me. And my family, and he deserves our country's respect. He's sharp looking, rarely wrong, a great family man, and he knows how to win. He makes every team he's on better. The fact that out of 394 members, one single baseball member voted against Ichiro is disappointing. So he's been talking about Ichiro Suzuki. I bet you thought he was talking about somebody else.

Marty: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Bill: you. So I had this, man, all these, I can't believe this guy is saying these things. I thought I knew him. And then when I realized he's talking about Ichiro, you son of a gun. See now, if that, if what I thought that was, was what it was, that would have been difficult. That would have been a suddenly this, this person who I have respect and admiration for. Would have been, uh, a difficult person for me, as you say, gosh, there's no way to have a conversation with this.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I noticed that there were, you know, as I was listening to that, there were some things I agreed with, some things that made my blood boil, other things I was just like, I don't really care much about that. And, you know, it's going up and down. Like, you know, like my temperature probably went from 50 to 100. Um, um, But, uh, that, so that was, that was interesting in itself, because that shows the places where I'm un, you know, I would have, I would consider that a difficult person. Not in every, not everything he said was difficult, but some of those things were difficult for me to swallow. If, if they applied, like,

Bill: To who you thought they applied to.

Marty: fine, exactly.

Bill: Right. That was fun.

Marty: Um, yeah, I mean, this also, you know, just, I, I was thinking about, I just started dating somebody right before I came down to live in Mexico for the winter. So it was really bad timing. And, um, I think I was in that way, a difficult person. Um, I'm, I'm, he might not agree, but that's what I felt like I was being difficult. Like, wow, we're just getting into this and now I'm gonna go away for four months.

Bill: know, I've, I've wondered about this. Yeah.

Marty: you know, I, I asked him, you know, you know, to talk to me about it and I, I wanna. You know, get into your world and, uh, and, and understand how you're feeling. And, and he wanted to understand me too. Like, why is it important for you to go away right now? And, uh, and, um, you know, how does, what does that mean about how you feel about me? Right. And so it was that mutual respect was there. It wasn't a reactionary conversation. It's like, okay, you know, we're. We're, you know, challenging each other here. Let's talk about this. And, um, and then he said the most beautiful thing. He said, well, you know, I'm, I'm thinking long term about us. So, you know, there will probably be other times in, in this long relationship that I foresee us having. That we will, you know, need to be separated. Um, I don't wish that, but it's highly likely. And so I'm thinking, you know, this is, this is, you know, one of the, you know, just one of the things that, that there is to live with and to work with and to get creative around how do we deepen our intimacy, even as we're miles apart and that just, I mean, that was like such. Beautiful music to my ears. And I'm like, wow, thank

Bill: a, what a beautiful response that is.

Marty: you.

Bill: Loving. Yeah. Wow.

Marty: Yeah, I found a good one.

Bill: Yeah, you did. Marty, we need to begin to wrap up. As you know, I've got kind of a dead stop here in just a few minutes. Anything else you want to comment from your article or about this topic of difficult people?

Marty: Well, for me, I, I come away from it mostly, uh, I'm reminded of the sense that the, like I have all of those characteristics of the people that I consider difficult. I have them in me. And all of the good things about me, they have to, right? And so they're, like, this is a reflection of me. You are me. I am you. We are, you know, it's, it reminds me to look at my fellow human beings as me, right? Like you look at your parts as you, right? And to integrate. to feel to feel the integration and you know, like this is, this is me on looking at that other human being across there. That's me. And, and that's where, that's how we can source, um, progress and, and the, the, the nurturing of compassion of course and wisdom too.

Bill: Yeah. Great. Marty, I'm also wondering if someone wanted to read this article that we've been referencing, do you have it online accessible for someone to read?

Marty: Yes, you can go to LinkedIn. It's, it's an article that's posted on LinkedIn

Bill: Okay.

Marty: under my name or under the title, difficult people.

Bill: Difficult People under Dr. Martin Kettlehut. All right. Enjoyed our conversation. I'm, you know, I, I think, know, we should probably plan these out more and, know, create some bullet points and talking points and, but we never seem to lack anything to say. We fill up the time before we run out of things to say.

Marty: It's pretty fun. Yeah. Thank you for, you know, putting the focus on this work that I created today.

Bill: Uh, before we say goodbye, uh, I want to say out loud on the podcast that you and I are talking about after season three, the focus somewhat. We've been talking about leadership coaching now, uh, for two full seasons. which are only defined by the fact that we called season one, the end of season one and season two, the end of season two, and now we're in season three and we'll see how long that last before we're ready to just switch over. But, uh, so some, some changes on the horizon, I think that we are going to change the focus from, uh, leadership specifically to. Uh, what we're talking about is possibly talking about different modalities of coaching that support people that have had trauma, people that, uh, maybe are challenged by substance abuse and addiction people who are interested in recovering their true authentic self. So, stay tuned. More, more will be revealed.

Marty: One more announcement, if I can squeeze it in, in that article, which I can, I can also post that on my sub stack, um,

Bill: There we go.

Marty: or, uh, but, but anyway, for now it's on LinkedIn. Um, there's also an announcement. about some free workshops that I will be giving starting at the end of February. So if leadership is your topic, and that's why you're here, the these workshops and they're free would be a great way to delve deeper into that topic and, um, and to see it as relation rather than as something that an individual possesses. Um, so you can see when to, you know, When, when those workshops are and how to access them by looking up that article on LinkedIn.

Bill: And if you're, uh, if you're listening to this near January of 2025, that's relevant, but if you're listening to this in 2026 or 2027, it may not be. So, uh, hopefully you're listening to it sooner than later and you can take advantage of that. All right, Marty. Thank you.