Bill: Welcome to another episode of Leadership Coaching Podcast with Dr. Martin Kettlehut, my co host on the podcast. And my name is Bill Tierney, and I'm a results coach. I've been working with a lot of people in recovery lately. I'm a certified IFS practitioner. And, uh, Dr. Martin, Marty, Doc, what is your specialty? What's your focus?

Marty: My focus is leadership. I've done, I've been observing leaders, uh, in, uh, small and large companies for 25 years as a coach. And I put all that I've learned in a book recently called Leadership is Relation. And so I'm really, um, committed to empowering amazing leadership. We need it. My specialty is leadership. I'm fascinated by the topic. Um, and I've spent many years coaching leaders and learning from them what works and doesn't work. And, um, I just wrote a book on the topic leadership as relation. So that's, um, the focus of my coaching practice right now is leadership.

Bill: Well good to see you Marty. What we want to talk about today is seeking approval You brought the topic up. You've been kind of listening as I have been throughout the week when we're talking to clients and having conversations with various people and having experiences in life. Hey, that'd be a good topic to bring to to the podcast. So what was it? What was it that inspired this for you

Marty: Uh, well, it's come up a lot. Um, with, you know, myself and with others, uh, for one, here's a, uh, just to use me as an example here, uh, I, uh, wanted to do a presentation on my book at my 40th college reunion this fall, and I don't know what went on. I'm not about to criticize, but, um, uh, It didn't work out. They, they were slow and getting back and then they changed the policy. Doesn't matter. Um, and I realized that, you know, in, in dealing with my emotional reactions that, uh, I was in part looking for approval from my Alma mater. Right. Cause my mother is actually dead. So I was looking for approval and, and I realized like that, that might even be the main reason why this is so upsetting is I hoping that Alma mater would give me the approval on this new book that I can't get from my own mother right now. Um, so that, that was one of the things that triggered, and then I started to hear other people in my, you know, friends and clients also, you know, You know, focused on seeking approval. It's all. It's also one of the. One of the characteristics of an adult child of a dysfunctional family, you know, we, we didn't get it in our dysfunctional family of origin. And so we're, we're seeking approval out in the world. So I know I'm not alone in this. Um, that that's basically how it comes up.

Bill: What does Alma Mater mean? The school, college, or university that one's attended. The anthem of a school. Oh, mid 17th century, in the general sense, someone or something providing nourishment. Generous mother, there it is.

Marty: There it is.

Bill: Generous mother,

Marty: There, I knew it. I'm, I knew the modern part that, that part, that's why I was making the reference to my mom.

Bill: yes.

Marty: Um, but yeah, the Alma means generous.

Bill: Yeah. All right. So, uh, when you brought the topic up just before we hit record, the first place my mind went was, was to Byron Katie, who has something that she says about love, approval, and appreciation as the consolation prizes for what we will accept when we're not getting the real thing. We seek others love because we don't have it for ourselves. We seek the approval of others because We are willing to accept that. We've come to accept that as the breadcrumbs that we will accept rather than just accepting ourselves. And appreciation. So many of us, I certainly can look at my life, look back at my life and see how I spent so much time seeking love, seeking approval and seeking appreciation. So that's where my mind went was remembering what, when I was hanging out at Byron Katie events and listening to her stuff every single day for years, how that really got in. Seeking love, approval, and appreciation. Those are the consolation prizes. How does that land for you when you hear me say that?

Marty: I think we need to stay, step back a little bit. First of all, say more about, uh, Why this would happen to a human being that they would be seeking it elsewhere. Um, so I get that where we're, where we're headed is, you know, there's something missing in your relationship to yourself and you're trying to fill it from the outside.

Bill: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Marty: But if I'm in the middle of feeling that way, that doesn't give me a place to go.

Bill: Right. Right. Okay. Well, let's just talk about places to go, and, but your question is, um, why would someone be seeking approval? Yes?

Marty: Right. Why does, how does this help us to better understand why this is such a human, you know, common human phenomenon?

Bill: Right. And yeah, maybe we can also explore, well, why is it, why is it a problem?

Marty: Right.

Bill: the problem with seeking

Marty: Right. Good. Yeah.

Bill: Yeah, well, then if you don't mind, let's just go back in history again to 2003, I think it was, maybe 2002, when I was first introduced to Byron Katie and she began to lay out these process, her process and these, these principles and these ideas. And her process is basically four questions for those that don't already know. She, she believes and teaches that, If we're suffering, it's because we are attached and believing thoughts that aren't true. And the way she's

Marty: So just to clarify, seeking approval is suffering.

Bill: often, yes, yes. Seeking approval generates suffering. And, and there's, there's beliefs and thoughts behind that. So she would ask these four questions once the thought or the belief was identified that seemed to be associated with the suffering. When someone would come to her at one of her events, she would have them fill out a judge your neighbor worksheet. And she even had a poem that, that she still does, I'm sure. Judge your neighbor, write it down, ask four questions, turn it around. Essentially, that describes the entire process. When I'm judging someone, I'm suffering. So I want to write down my judgment. He's so selfish. Now, ask four questions. Is it true that he's so selfish? Two, can I absolutely know it's true? Three, what happens when I believe it? How do I react when I believe the thought that, that he's so selfish? And then four, who would I be, given now, now that I've described who I am when I believe it, who would I be if I couldn't believe it?

Marty: Could we use an example that is about seeking approval?

Bill: Uh,

Marty: Sorry to interrupt, but it just occurred to me that that might be

Bill: I, yeah, I mean, some thoughts might sound like, um, I, I need her approval.

Marty: Hmm

Bill: as simple as that. I need your approval.

Marty: mm-hmm

Bill: That would be an example. Is it true that I need your approval? Yeah. Yeah. I'm working for you. Sure. You're my boss. I need you to prove of what I'm doing. Can you absolutely know it's true? That I, that I, that you need, let me just stay with the original statement. I need your approval. Can I absolutely know that I need your approval? Well, no. So that question is actually designed to punch a few holes in the possibility that maybe it's not true.

Marty: Well, this is part of what I wanna discuss. I'm, I'm sorry I keep interrupting your process. I beg your pardon for that, but where does that come from? Like, how did it get that way? It seems like a lot of it can be explained by well. If, if I don't seek people's approval and I just go off and do what I want, I keep getting in trouble or, you know, uh, added down or, um, told that I shouldn't be so bold or something like that. Right? And so I'm not quite ready to, to, to start fixing this with, with Byron Katie in a way. Right? I want to understand, like, why am I doing this? Well, why do we do this? It seems like there is. a call for being, for getting approval before you move in, move on. Uh, why is this bad?

Bill: Or why is it unworkable? Why is it dysfunctional? What's the problem with it? Yeah. And I want to, first of all, validate what you're saying about Byron Katie. Can sometimes be just used as a fix rather than a, an inquiry and honest inquiry and exploration. Let me fix this problem by, by identifying a thought like I need your approval and then showing how it's not valid or true and how much suffering it's creating. It's kind of a fix, which is by the way, why, when I discovered the internal family systems. Model 14 years later, I saw that that it just supercharged and inquiry and exploration because what it did is removed the agenda of let's fix this to and replaced it with. Let's get curious about this.

Marty: Which I want, I want, you know, I don't want to be dependent. I don't want to be that. It's kind of a nice guy. It's, it's a nice guy attribute too. Right. Um, I don't want that. I do want to fix it, but I just feel like I won't in our conversation here, I want to fill out that where it comes from, what it all is about, and then we can fix it. If you don't mind, that's.

Bill: Oh, yeah. And we don't even need to fix it. Let's just talk about it. So you asked me for an example in Byron Katie and I came up with one and began to go through that process and that was really wasn't working for you and I get why not, can you give me an example in your life where either you or a client or someone that you know from seeking approval generated problems that, that, um, that that deserve some inquiry. My examples. I'm just such a, a, a great, I think my examples. I'm just such a, a, a great, I so dysfunctional. I've had so much unworkability in my life. I've been so broken down. I'm just a great study underneath the Petri dish when I, because I've been survival story before, but we were both in the kitchen. I was loading In the dishwasher, she didn't load the dishwasher the same way that I did. So she made a suggestion and just offered up, well, I like to put the plates in this way. And something inside happened when she said that. I felt managed. I felt even controlled. But I, but maybe the most painful thing about it was that it felt like she was criticizing what the way that I was loading the dishwasher. I mean, who the hell cares? Whether I'm loading the dishwasher right or not, but it, it hooked something inside of me, it triggered something old, ancient, and really painful, and almost as automatic as, as she said that, it went immediately from, I like to load it this way, to feeling this pain, to responding aggressively and defensively. I said, well, I guess I just can't do anything right. Now what's that got to do with approval? One of the protectors inside, one of my parts that protects me. Makes sure that I do everything in such a way that it can be, get the stamp of approval of the people that I want to like me. That's unworkable. I'm not always going to get the stamp of approval. And not only that, if I'm so busy working for approval, then I'm not actually being my authentic self. I'm, I'm trying to be who it is I think someone else wants me to be.

Marty: Right. Thank you. That's a great example. Um, You know, one of the more general examples, which we could tie to a specific, but person, but is, you know, a lot of times in, in marketing oneself as a coach, or I suppose anything, you can see the difference between the times when people are seeking approval through their marketing, you know, giving, giving what they think they need to get. What they need to give in order to get, you know,

Bill: Giving to get.

Marty: the interest, you know, and, and the, and it's, it's just another form of approval seeking. Right. And, and, and you don't, you could tell because you don't really learn anything about them genuinely. When, when in that marketing piece, you, you just see them trying to get,

Bill: Mm

Marty: so that, that's, that's an, a general one that I've been guilty of too. You know, like I'm telling people what they want to hear so that they will come and sign up for coaching instead of saying, here's what I think, or here's what I need, or here's, you know, who you need to be for me to coach you or something like, it's a whole different approach. And I also know another example. Thank you for giving that one. It spurred my recognizing. I have a friend who's an artist, fantastic art, like absolutely very talented person. And, you know, he, he's an approval seeker. And his family of origin didn't know or care about art and his current wife and her family, they don't care much about it. I mean, they live in the middle of Colorado. They're not in New York City or Paris or somewhere where there are art galleries and art appreciators and art magazines and everything. Um, and so, you know, he's, he spends his time. Doing the things his wife wants him to do, um, and approve, getting her approval, like fixing the bathroom, you know, remodeling their bathroom, or, um, you know, they have chickens and, you know, taking care of the chickens and, and it's all just, and he never gets, he rarely gets around to creating his art.

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: And it's all because he spends his life seeking approval.

Bill: Yes. He's seeking approval, and I want to throw in the possibility that that would be validation that he has successfully avoided what he doesn't want,

Marty: He's successfully avoided what he doesn't want.

Bill: if he can get approval.

Marty: Right. So that's one of the strategies I take it, why we would be approval seekers is to avoid getting what we don't want.

Bill: Yeah. It may be oversimplified to say that really so much of what we do when we're not in our authentic state is driven by the pursuit of pleasure or the avoidance of pain. I think it, I think it might be something to consider here.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I don't want your disapproval. I don't want to be criticized. I don't want you to see me as less than perfect. I don't want you to see past all of the layers that I've created so that you never find out that I am who I am afraid I am.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: So, so I'm going to work hard for your approval. That approval, it lets me rest and relax for a minute, until I begin to build up concerns and fears and insecurities again so that I need more of your approval. That makes me needy. If I need your approval, I am needy, you feel my need, and I am high maintenance. I'm a lot of work.

Marty: I mean, you could see that also, also with some, some people with their, their kids, their kids, the kids are like, is this okay, mom? Do you like this? Give me, give me, give me, give me, give me some approval. Whereas other kids, you know, the parent will say, that's no good. Go do it again. And the kid just runs off and does it again, like doesn't have that same neediness. So this starts early.

Bill: Yes, I believe so too. Yeah, I think so. Carol Dweck talks about it in Fixed and, uh, what is her, what's her, uh, it's Fixed Mindset. Fixed Mindset. It's the book's mindset and it's fixed or growth mindset, I think is the one. So this is another example of it. I think that fixed mindset people are people that need to know, nail down what's right, what's okay, what's black, what's white, what's right, what's wrong. That's that's a fixed mindset. A growth mindset isn't too concerned about it because it means nothing about them. If I don't get this right the first time and it's the first time I've ever looked at it and I'm trying to learn it, of course I'm not going to get it. Look at it. Look at the opportunity to grow. That's my attitude. But if I've got a fixed mindset, it's, it's fear based. If I don't get this right, what does it mean about people? About me? And what people think of me?

Marty: All of this seems to suggest to me that there are, let's call them environments or contexts in which a person is bound to be more approval seeking because there's a fear factor built in, you know, like a hierarchical structure or, you know, or, you know, Right. Something at stake or, you know, there, it seems like there are certain families in which that shows up because of the way that they, you know, the dynamics in that family and other families or other corporations, right. That are structured differently or other countries where the, you know, there's a different kind of law. I mean, I would think there'd be more approval seekers in Nazi Germany than there would be anywhere else. Right. Cause there's such a, you know, you got to conform or else kind of thing. Right.

Bill: That's a higher level of fear right there, for sure. Now our life's at stake. Yeah.

Marty: Right? And if you live on a commune or something, I don't know, out in the, you know, in the California desert or something. I'm just making stuff up here. Right? Where everybody's equal and, you know, lots of room for making mistakes. You probably don't have as much approval seeking. I don't know. Yes.

Bill: It really would. If, if you were to put together a group of people who say, you know, everything goes, it's fine, we embrace it all. Put them together for, and then check back with them in three months. Yeah. And I'm going to guess, because we're human beings, that there's going to be a hierarchy, there's going to, there's going to be understood, There's going to be an understanding about what does it take to be to belong and what does it take to be? Not to not belong and and and there's going to be a seeking seeking approval It seems like it's almost it almost seems like it's built right in to the human being and it probably is But I don't think it's our natural state. I don't think approval seeking is our natural state other than

Marty: Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, I've read a little, not much on indigenous cultures, um, and it seems like there's more, like, everybody has a place, whereas in this, my society that I live in, you know, there's some people, they're displaced, they're disenfranchised, you know, and, and so I would think that in an indigenous culture where it's Everybody's accepted and appreciated for no matter what, you know, um, that you wouldn't have that drive to get approval as much. That's where I was coming from. And I might be totally wrong about that.

Bill: No, in fact You might be but I I don't think so as I listen to you talk about it. I'm just Recognizing that the last couple of comments, my, my comment and your comment, both are identifying that maybe what approval and disapproval is about is belonging and rejection. And, and now, now we're talking about something that is crucial for human survival. If we, we know that we're not the fastest, we're not the biggest, we're not the strongest out there in the animal kingdom. And if we, if we don't group together, we're not going to survive. Human beings have survived because we figured out how to be social.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And, and so part of being social is, who do I have to be to fit? And belong here, which is a huge challenge to the thing that I try to help people do, which is to show up as their true authentic self hard to do when everybody else around you is saying it's not okay for you to be your true authentic

Marty: Right, right. This is, this is I think the crux of what the, the nut of what's been bugging me about it.

Bill: Yeah. And let me just acknowledge your persistence at getting to the nut of this. Uh, you know, rather than going to a fix possibly, you know, I'm just noticing the conversation is starting to get a little bit of flow now that we found our way here. But at first it was a little clunky. It felt like we were walking on broken glass there for a minute.

Marty: Well seen.

Bill: Well seen, is that what you said?

Marty: Yes. Yeah.

Bill: You know, I'm also thinking about, Not to get away from what we've actually talked about, I don't think Glover actually addresses belonging and not belonging in his book, but you mentioned earlier on, this is nice guy stuff, and I couldn't agree more. You know, the, the characteristics of the nice guy.

Marty: Yeah. I happen to have the book out right now because I have a new client who's, um, who's a nice guy and so I've got him reading this book.

Bill: Well, I'm in the, in the first chapter, chapter one, the nice guy syndrome.

Marty: anyways.

Bill: yeah, a few pages in the nice guy characteristics are nice guys are givers. And let me just say nice guys are not gender specific. Nice guys can man, woman, um, them, they, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, nice guys are givers. Why would, why would you want to give to get

Marty: right,

Bill: without having to claim I want something? I did this in my first marriage. I was such a giver and I was so resentful when she didn't pick up on the contract. She didn't recognize that her job then was to give to me without me having to ask for it.

Marty: which shows like that is there's approval seeking there. It says is a sign of how good they are and will make other people love and appreciate them. So

Bill: There it is. Love. Yeah. There's buyer and Katie's words right there. Love approval and appreciation. They, he didn't mention approval there, but there it is.

Marty: right.

Bill: Number two, nice guys fixing here. Go ahead.

Marty: The third one, the third one is actually nice guys seek approval from

Bill: Oh, there it is directly. They have a universal trait. A nice guy syndrome is the seeking of validation. So he's using validation and approval synonymously. And I think that's appropriate. I think he should. I think that's those are those words can be interchanged. I'm seeking validation. Am I valid? Am I Do you see me the way that I want you to see me?

Marty: I would like to get back to where you were going. At the beginning of the conversation, though, now that we've kind of fleshed out the background, so The, the road to recovery from approval seeking.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I'm, I'm always going to use the IFS model when, when we get into this kind of territory. Um, I'm going to ask a client who says, you know, I'm such an approval seeker or discovers in the course of coaching that they are approval seekers and that is problematic. Once it's identified, this is a problem and I want to do something about it. What I'm going to do is I'm going to ask the client for an example. How's this showing up in your life?

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: And because once I have that example, then we don't have to speculate and generalize about what parts might be contributing to the problem in their efforts to help. By the way, let me just say that parts are always trying to help. They're not always aware that they contribute to problems, that there's unintended consequences to their efforts to help.

Marty: Uh huh.

Bill: And this is a great example of it. Approval seeking parts. Want to help, but they create problems and that they may or may not be aware of. So if we can come up with a specific example, I can talk more about this very specifically rather than generally.

Marty: Mm hmm. Um,

Bill: So I'm thinking, do I have experience with clients in the past? That I can speak about without naming them and without giving so much information that it gives away who they are. Or, have I got experience in my own life? Do you have experience in your own life? Of approval seeking and how, how that's been problematic. How painful perhaps it's been when you've needed or wanted somebody's validation or approval and didn't get it.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: You talked about the book, the book signing at your alma mater. That's a good, good example.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And we use it.

Marty: Sure.

Bill: Okay. So if, if you were my coaching client, I'd want you to tell me enough of the story. So I have a sense of it. And then I begin to ask, help you, you know, identify the different parts of you that, that reacted to. The feeling that you had when you didn't get the approval, can you talk, do you feel comfortable talking about it a little bit?

Marty: Sure.

Bill: Okay. So what happened?

Marty: Uh, what happened is that I, I, I knew that they have these book signings at, at reunions. And so I let them know that I'd written a book and wanted to be a part of that and they didn't get back to me and ultimately it didn't work out. Um, and so I was left feeling abandoned or, you know, like not appreciated, like like I'm a, I'm a son of this community and, and I'm not being, I would, you have a structure for recognizing people like me. And it's not happening. What, you know, what was me?

Bill: By the way, that's another word recognition. That's when we seek approval. Isn't that what we want to be seen? to be recognized and we want to be validated. Am I valid? want to be validated. So, in that, in that scenario, when did you first feel the pain?

Marty: When it seemed like it was taking too long for them to get back to me,

Bill: And what was the story behind the pain? They're taking too much time to get back to me. And that means what? What was your story?

Marty: I'm not important.

Bill: I'm not important. Yeah. So even when you say that right now, notice how it feels when you say that I'm not important. It's painful, isn't it? To go back to Byron Cage, he says, anytime I think of thought that argues with reality, I suffer. You suffer when you believe you're not important. And. If it's built right in, I don't mean from the original manufacturer, but if you learned along the way that you weren't important, if that's the conclusion that you drew because something happened that was, that overwhelmed you, whether it was trauma or just a challenge, something you couldn't digest, it got stuck in you as a belief. I'm not important. And, and so

Marty: I don't matter. I'm worthless.

Bill: all versions of that, I'm worthless. I don't matter. I'm not important. Now you got a secret to keep, by the way, you can't let the world find out that you're not important, that you don't matter and that you're worthless.

Marty: Right. This.

Bill: got it.

Marty: So in my coaching, this is called the secret identity, precisely because I have to keep it a secret.

Bill: right, right. And how do you keep it a secret then? How in your life have you kept it a secret that you're not important, that you don't matter, and that you're worthless?

Marty: I overcompensate.

Bill: What do you do?

Marty: Um, well, I, I, and well, starting with my own thinking, I'm like, Oh my God, this is the most important book in the world. Everybody needs to read this. Come on. Like that. Um, but also, like, when I, When I, like if, when I go to a party, let's say, and I am, you know, been invited to a party and I walk in the room and, and there's all these people there, most of whom I don't know, I'm, I'm paying very close attention to how I'm being received and I, I might even show off, right? In some way, like, well, I've known the host longer than you, or I've got the funniest joke tonight or something like that to, to overcompensate for thinking that I'm really not important here. And it's worthless to have me around.

Bill: Wizard of Oz, my favorite scene, maybe my favorite movie, my favorite scene in my favorite movie, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Marty: And it's a great line. That's such a good line.

Bill: Yes, well that's what we're doing, right? And so what I heard from you just now, correct me if I didn't get it quite right, is you try to generate value. Yes. You try to sometimes show off, and you might, but, but you're, you're, when you're believing, when, especially when this is triggered, when you're conscious of it somehow, and you become conscious of it when you begin to feel the pain of it, otherwise it resides back in the back, background, as unconscious, I'm not important, I don't matter, I'm worthless. Because you're so busy generating this false identity around the, the shame identity. The false identity is look at how much value I generate. Look how funny I am,

Marty: right.

Bill: smart I am, and, um, and, and, and this piece about concerned about how others perceive me. Now that is the watchdog that's saying, am I getting their approval or not? Do they appreciate me? Do they recognize me? Do they, will they validate me? As long as they do, we're good.

Marty: Right.

Bill: We've, we've successfully hidden it and I'm no longer feeling the pain. In fact, I'm feeling something completely different than pain. I'm no longer feeling I'm not important. I don't matter. And I'm, I'm worthless. I'm no, no longer feeling the shame and pain of that. Now I'm feeling, I can lift, you know, fill up my chest and stand tall and they like me. I did it. I generated, I

Marty: Well, at least, or at least I've impressed them, you know, or something like that, that's how it comes out. You know, like I, I'll brag, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll use big words or there's all kinds of tricks that I, that I not that conscious of that. I, I know that I do to compensate for feeling like I'm worthless.

Bill: And let's just say that all of those strategies that you've named are strategies employed by parts of you who have for years and years been working very hard to hide what it is you are afraid is true about you. Our parts are amazing. They are diligent. They are devoted. They are committed. They will not stop. They'll keep doing what they can do to do their jobs. These parts are all trying to hide that you're not important, that you're worthless, and that you don't matter. The devotion is just incredible. I just appreciate them so much. They are young, young parts. I'm not important didn't probably happen in college. It might have been triggered in college. It might have been

Marty: Many times. Yes.

Bill: Yeah, yeah. But the, the origins of it.

Marty: Oh, this goes way back. Yeah, this is. So what are you saying to our audience about how to

Bill: Well,

Marty: cover? I mean,

Bill: based on this conversation that we're having right now, this was basically a demonstration of what I would be doing with the client. Let's get to the source of your need for approval. And I think we've gotten there already. Now, what do we want to do about it? That's what you've been seeking. What do we do? Okay. So approval seeking is a problem. What do we do about it? Well, if I'm using the IFS model, then I'm going to identify the parts. There's a part of you that believes that you're not important, that you don't matter, and that you're worthless. That, that would be referred to in the IFS model as an exile. And then there's a ton of other parts that are organized around that exile to handle it, manage it, control it, hide it, and exile it. We want to start with those protectors. And get curious about what they're doing, how long they've been doing it, what they're afraid is going to happen if they don't do it.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: By building relationship, isn't this interesting? By building relationship with our parts as the leader of our own internal system. We can earn the trust of our parts and then when we've earned enough trust, we can update them with the facts related to what's happening now and let them see the contrast between what's happening now and what happened Decades ago.

Marty: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm So would it be a good practice for someone like me who notices that I, I have times when my approval seeking gets in the way of living a fully empowered life to create a practice of sitting down and. Approving of myself, basically, like, you know, like telling myself in maybe in a journal, here's, here's what we appreciate. Here's what we, I guess, the, the central, how did you just refer to it? The part that sees all the other parts, um, the self,

Bill: The Self, the capital S Self, yeah.

Marty: right. You know, like to recognize myself, to validate myself, to approve of things that I've done without being a good, like regular practice so that I don't get needy.

Bill: In a way, that is, that would require another part of you to manage. The needy part of you, would it bring about some positive results as long as you were willing to put the effort in? Yes. But as soon as you stop putting in that effort that and no longer manage the part of you that's holding the pain of I don't matter, then you're going to be back to being needy again.

Marty: So what's a, what's a better practice.

Bill: The best practices is, in my opinion, is to help the part release the belief that you are worthless. That you don't matter and the only way a part's going to be able and willing to release a belief like that is when it sees that what's actually true doesn't match what it decided was true when the trauma or the challenge happened.

Marty: And in this case. That means what? Okay.

Bill: in her book. I can't remember the doctor that she wrote this book with, but the name of the book is what happened to you. And, and the premise of the book is, it's not about what is wrong with you. It's about what happened to you. And I believe that, that she and the doctor rightly identified that what's happening for those of us that struggle with life is that something happened to us and the adaptations that we made to cope with what happened to us now have turned into maladapt, maladaptations. And our job now as. As the core leader of our, of our internal world is to connect with those parts of us that created those adaptations to help us to survive and return the favor by updating them and letting them know that what, what occurred and what was true then. Is no longer true. And in some cases, what we decided back then to survive weren't ever true in the first place. They just were the best explanation that are that the 3, 4, 10 year old versions of ourselves could come up with parts to see the truth the moment apart sees the truth sees that the premise that they've been operating on was is not accurate. They dropped the strategy. They drop the burden and when that happens, you no longer have to do affirmations. You don't have to reassure yourself. You don't have to look in the mirror and tell yourself that you love yourself. Your parts aren't satisfied. They are very happy to fall under your leadership and just recognize that you have the strength, the wisdom and all the resources that you need to show up as your highest, as your wisest adult self.

Marty: That's great. So rather than coming up with other strategies to compensate, like affirmations, let go of the, uh, of the original belief that's, that's causing all of this, that, that, that you needed approval.

Bill: That's right. And that can take, that can take a while. We need to be really patient with our parts because they've been doing their jobs for decades and there's a lot of them. We don't have to work with every single part that's been doing that job. But if we can find the, what I call the linchpin parts and work with them and exile is always a linchpin. If the exile can release its belief, then it's a much easier job when we go to the protectors to help them release their, their beliefs. And, we have to work in reverse order. We have to start with the protectors first, because that's been their sacred territory. We don't want to trespass on their sacred territory, which is to manage the, or handle, or protect the exile.

Marty: Think you're right about the, you know, when they get updated, they, they, They don't, that does it. I mean, this happened to me last night, actually. Um, I went to an ACA meeting and we were talking about how you were, how birthdays were treated and what, you know, you got out of the, you know, your, and some people didn't get acknowledged on their birthdays and, and some people got to acknowledge or what, there were all these different variants. For me, it was, it just seemed like, you know, old hat. It was obligatory. Like. You're, you have to get a card for your brother, you know, you, mom has to bake a cake and you know, it's always going to happen and then, and it, there's this picture of me about probably like eight years old and I've got a birthday cake and a couple of presents in front of me that already been unwrapped and I'm just sitting there. Like not, not getting what I wanted, right? Not getting the acknowledgement that I wanted out of the birthday. And this was quite often the case. So then later on in the evening, I went out to have my usual look at the stars before bed. And give up my thoughts. That's what I do at night before I go to bed. And then I connected with my mom and dad in that moment as I was giving up these thoughts. It was like, I, you know, like, I'm not really holding it against you about this birthday thing. Like, And I could tell they, they somehow communicated through their celestial bodies to me. Like we know, we know, but it, it was a problem. It was a bothersome thing for me, like birthdays but to this day, um, you know, I avoid. birthdays. I just don't make anything out of them because I don't, you know, I don't want to be a burden to somebody. I don't want to have, you know, that, um, obligatory that have to force people to celebrate my birthday. So I just avoid it.

Bill: hmm. Right?

Marty: The point is that as soon as I, as soon as I updated my parts last night and said, look, I'm not really holding this against my parents. It went away. You know, I, I, I connected peacefully with my parents. I feel whole again around birthdays, like that, that whole complex, that whole dynamic disappeared.

Bill: I love so much about what you just shared. Can I acknowledge? Can I give you my approval?

Marty: And just so you know, I didn't tell the story in order to get your approval.

Bill: I know, I know, I know, and the, you know, the paradox of this is that I usually get approval when I'm not trying to get it. And I usually don't when I'm trying. So I loved that you, you just didn't even break your conversation hardly at all. Other than to acknowledge you got an Amazon package and you took the computer with you so that we could continue to continue to hear your story and see your face, you grabbed your package and all of that was just so automatic. And, and, uh, you didn't even miss a beat. I love your practice of going out looking at the stars and what's the phrase that you use about letting go of your thoughts? Is that what you said?

Marty: Yeah, I just give them up to the sky.

Bill: your thoughts. Love that. That is fantastic. I just really love that a lot. And what a great example of a spontaneous, what we would call this in IFS, a spontaneous unburdening. So many of these unburdenings are arduous. I mean, it's a lot of work. We have to find our way. We have to travel across this contoured environment. Uh, that, where we've never been before. We explore, like, tell me more, tell me more. What else can you tell me? What other parts are involved here? Till we finally get to the place where we understand, Oh, that's where this idea came from. And that's why you're suffering so much, because you believe this idea. So, are you ready? Are you ready to see that things are different and changed? And now we offer up, yes, things are different and changed. Look, I'm 69 years old. I'm not six anymore. And, and I've got my own kids, and they're raised, and they're successful, and they're happy. And I'm married now, for the third time! And I got, I got money in the bank, you know, and I'm not worried about money. And I get enough to eat, and, and there's nobody around beating me up. And I'm not bullied anymore, and I'm loved by people. And my parts at that point will say, really, I want to live with you. Great. Great. You're, you're, let's do it. You're, you're welcome. Come live with me. And they, and they leave that place where they've been frozen in the past, thinking that they're still under traumatic circumstances. And they join me in the freedom that, that I've created through the course of my life, as I have healed, uh, and done this work. That that's what there is to do when approval is problematic for me.

Marty: Got it. Got it. By the way, the

Bill: Well, I think we can call it.

Marty: package, this comes all the way from India. That's why I wanted to get it. I ordered fenugreek leaves. It's a spice in Indian cooking. You can either get the seeds, which is what is normally used in a curry, for example. Or you can get the leaf forms. And so these are fresh fenugreek leaves from India. Got it.

Bill: Wow. Now you should probably have your own YouTube channel or TikTok channel and show people how to use those.

Marty: Yes,

Bill: maybe have another podcast where you're just talking about how you, what you do with your vegetables from your garden, how you prepare them, how you invite people over and that, by the way, I'm, I'm only kind of kidding here. I think that that actually would be very interesting to see what you do in the kitchen.

Marty: it would be.

Bill: Yeah Marty as always really enjoyed the conversations. Does this feel complete enough for you?

Marty: Yes, and thank you for indulging me with the walking on glass part of it.

Bill: I hope we I hope our listeners didn't get too uncomfortable as they walked through that with us and found their way to the to the better juicier, uh More comfortable fun parts of this some sometimes we we do that. Sometimes we don't but until next time.

Marty: Thank you. Bye.