Marty:Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Coaching Podcast. Glad to have you with us today. We have a very special guest, along with Bill Tierney, IFS Coach and Recovery and Results Program Coach, along with me, Dr. Martin Ketelhut, author of Leadership as Relation. Today we have with us Marita Bolici. And, um, both Bill and I know Marita, um, from the coaching world, and we've both actually been coached by her. Um, and she runs a program, two programs actually, called Whetstone One and Whetstone Two, and just, you know, Just the word itself. Take a moment to think of the whetstone is what you sharpen your sword on. Right? So it's a very interesting title as well. Welcome, Marita.

Bill:Welcome, Marita. Glad you joined

Marita:Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Marty:So, um, one of the themes that's been running through. A number of our episodes is the difference that it makes when we think of ourselves and our activities and our communications is in relation, as opposed to individual, like one off. You know, modes or monads unto themselves. When we start thinking about things in relation, it changes in how we talk about them and it enriches the conversation, gives us more possibilities for change. And so the topic we'd like to take up today with Marina, since this is what her Whetstone programs are about in a lot, in too large extent, is the difference between the way most of coaching that we've known over the past 25 years is, has been about an individual, right? We coach individuals. And even when we coach groups, we coach them. The individuals in the group. And so we want to raise a bigger question here today about what has the individual in coaching recognize a larger purpose for themselves and and also, how is, how can coaching be responsible for transformation in the larger world, not just one by one with individuals. So that's our theme. Where should we dive in? You guys?

Bill:Well, did you, you've already gone through and introduced her, uh, according to

Marty:Oh, no, I haven't.

Bill:Would you like me to do that? Great.

Marty:If you would, that would be very kind of you.

Bill:That, that'll help me to feel, uh, engaged. And then I just can't wait to hear from Marita here. So, Marita, help me pronounce, pronounce it. Your name's, your last name's different than it was when I was

Marita:Yeah. Boldly. Cheap.

Bill:Boleci. I would have gotten that wrong. Marita Boleci is Transformer. Specifically, an executive advisor, coach, and coach mentor whose work encourages a free thinking, values oriented approach to personal growth and transformation. Her work is deeply rooted in ontology, buttressed by philosophy and the arts. With over 20 years of experience coaching leaders, executives, entrepreneurs, and individuals, Marita works to fulfill quantitative and qualitative goals with ease and power from within a unique framework. Her ideal client is committed to the improvement of the quality of life for any sector of society and are often themselves change agents and paradigm shifters. Ideal client shorthand, highly articulate spiritual weirdos who are out to change the

Marita:Woo.

Marty:Does that mean? And how did you get to that?

Marita:How did I get to that? I don't recall how I got to that. Maybe someone described me as that. I don't remember. I think that our ideal client is often sort of a mirror of ourself in some way. And, uh, and when I, there was a, a big permission to, um, To say it like it is rather than maybe talk about my ideal client and sort of like other qualities or characteristics, like what they do or something like that. I'm like, no, I really want to be working with people who are personal out to change the world, like that is what we're talking about. And that is what they're there for. And also, um, It really doesn't have to be all of these things. It could be two out of four. I could do just a highly articulate weirdo or spiritual person out to change the world or any combination thereof. But the articulation of it really amused me actually more than anything else. It really amused me and I feel like it really captured for me.

Marty:That's cool. Yeah, so that brings it out to change the world. Not every code says, I want to work with people who are out to change the world. And so it brings up this question of the relationship with the sort of one on one relationship. thing that we normally do as coaches and how that, why, why? well, let's maybe start historically. Why is that and, and what has us wanting the change now to,

Marita:Well, for me, um, I would say that my own evolution. So when I first became a coach, I was trained to work with people on different domains, there's a bullying domain and maybe there's a money domain or a relationship or a business. And then, out of that, I started, over time, I started to become very aware of the ecosystem. Like, it's not about different domains. It's about that you live inside of an ecosystem. So, every one of these aspects of your life impacts every other aspect of your life. Start coaching from

Marty:Mm-Hmm.

Marita:a systemic perspective , rather than, like, you sort of siloed a domain.

Marty:Right?

Marita:now we're getting into sort of like a relationship to the self as a more holistic organism rather than the disparate aspects of the self.

Marty:Okay. Mm-Hmm.

Marita:And then after that I started playing around in what's going on with a concept that I call systemic possibility. And systemic possibility is this idea that what is possible, like when I create a possibility for me, let's say I create a possibility of an outcome. Um, What I don't usually consider in my conception of that is that the fulfillment of that might be fulfilling on a possibility for you. So if I'm standing in the possibility of a highly articulate, spiritual weirdo out to change the world, and then Mark hires me as his coach, I'm like, woohoo, I did my possibility. But Mark's like, Oh my God, I was looking to fill in a possibility of a coach. He's like, yada, yada, yada, right? I was looking for people to work with who'd want tochange the world. And so there's actually a system to possibility , so that's our perception of possibility is larger than just the subjective relationship to possibility. So now we're like looking

Marty:Mm-Hmm.

Marita:at like win win kind of stuff. We're looking at that when I fulfill on what's possible for me, that actually is also fulfilling on what's possible for another. So that's sort of the next evolution in my thinking. And then it turned into, uh, frankly, a boredom with talking to people about their lives. In the face of the world, like what's going on in the world and a curiosity about like why no one has ever asked me to support them on a coaching project about their relationship to the climate crisis. I know whenever asked me to support them around their experience as a citizen, I just started to get very curious that like all of the same themes were showing up. And how I was putting that in the space. Like I just did, like when you work with a coach, you work on these things. So like I could start to see my own responsibility and how I'm setting that up to be sort of very like looking over here at the cell.

Marty:Mm-Hmm.

Marita:And then what I noticed from there was that, um, my experiences of coaches. Was that we're not really prepared to have conversations. On this level that we're speaking to today about the self inside of a larger contact because we ourselves as coaches, while we've done lots of work on ourself and our subjective, when we start to encounter the world, our resignation starts to show up and possibility starts to shut down, be able to create something for my own life. But when I think about the world and the world is way bigger than me, lots of people with lots of different opinions who did, most of whom don't agree with me. So it's like, Who am I to say what is there to create? And so from a whetstone, like that sharpening sword perspective, there was definitely something to be sharpened around our perspective in being able to transform people relative to the, to the world, to just transformation relative to the self. And that started the Whetstone 2 process, and that program failed a couple times, or it kind of got to a certain level one time, and then it built, like, there were several years of building, because there was something missing in every iteration of the program.

Marty:Mm-Hmm.

Marita:only really, I think, the third iterat well, the fourth iteration of the program, I had this very generous group who would just let me riff on ideas. Because we were trying to, like, get it, like, what is missing, like, why are we still unable, like, what is still in the way, empowered with the world? And then, um, the year after that was, like, really the first program that I felt, like, covered all of the bases of what needed to be looked at in order to have that conversation.

Marty:was missing? Mm-Hmm.

Marita:Um, what was missing was, um, people were still very, um, inside a disempowered context around their identities. And therefore we needed to have a conversation to talk about our identities where we could do the work to, um, to be able to encounter our identity and someone else's, which is kind of the opposite of the coach training that I've ever done, which is all more about like your being or your essence. This was actually looking at your personality and your history and how you show up in the world.

Marty:So I'm, I'm going to proffer.

Marita:Mm hmm.

Marty:That Bill, I want to bring you in to this because I'm, I'm, I'm suspecting that, you know, like on the IFS model, we see the individual as having many parts, right? That that might be the help us to see then how to cause transformation. At a social level, it's made up of parts too. And so we've got some insight, given the background that IFS, you know, gives us and, you know, so there would be about addressing the parts that are having trouble or in the way or, you know, reacting in some way and, and tending to them appropriately at a social level, as opposed to the individual and all the parts inside. And I don't know, does that, does that seem like the way or doable? What do you think, Bill?

Bill:Well, sure, sure, I, Marty, you've been around me enough to know that that's the lens through which I'm listening. That's maybe the filter through which I'm listening. And, um, and so I'm kind of wondering the same thing and you said it very well, is that, you know, what I've learned about how to help myself and help the individual in the internal family systems model is to recognize that there is a core self that has all the resources needed to lead a life of fulfillment. Uh, the, the challenge is will the parts step out of the way and allow those, allow access to those resources. I'll just say maybe one or two more things about my thoughts about how, how the application potentially of IFS to the, to the larger scale that we're talking about right now. There's a noticing that goes on in groups of people that are using IFS that recognizes that when one individual is being driven by a part of themselves that's in an extreme role it, it activates extreme parts of the other individuals that are in that group. So, wars begin.

Marty:can see how I'm, I'm interrupting, but you can see how I would be wanting to like, like, um, Donald Trump is an example, right? He's an extreme individual and he triggers these extremes in us.

Bill:exactly, whether we're followers or opposers, we, our parts get triggered.

Marty:Yeah.

Bill:And, but it's equally true that when a, an individual who is, uh, can bring some, some predominant influence in the group is self led. In other words, they have access to these internal resources that others may be cut off from.

Marty:So that might be, I'm interrupting again. I'm very sorry, but that might be something that we should park to come back to is what's the core self of the community.

Bill:There we go.

Marty:Okay, go ahead. Sorry. So

Bill:enough for me. I, I just wanted to share what's going on as I'm listening and I appreciate you including me and I'm just really enjoying listening.

Marty:what are you hearing in, in, in the, so far, Marita?

Marita:Yeah, so there is definitely analogous work in Whetstone 2 to parts therapy.

Marty:Uh

Marita:Um, what I, I refer to it as, um, and again, like, and for me, there's, well, it's all been talked about a million times in a million different ways over, over millennia. But for me, uh, the analogy we use is a location. So imagine like a two dimensional, infinite plane and everybody alive today has a unique location on that plane. And your sub concept . So where parts therapy is more like you use a framework to illuminate these aspects of the self. This is more your actual self concept so, like this, uh, there's a two dimensional plane and we all have our own location, which is based on our self concept. But really, like, how I literally show up in the world. Like, for me, mother is probably the first identity piece that I have. Woman would be second. Coach would be third. Everybody makes a list. It might be white, it could be liberal, or republican, or it could be unitary universalist, which I am, or whatever it is, like however you hold yourself in the world, how you would describe yourself. In

Marty:Mm hmm.

Marita:talk about, we even have clips from movies of people introducing themselves. This is how you introduce your location, like what do you do? Where are you from? Are you married or single? Like these are all like different things, and we learn about people, but we also have a relationship to these things. So, for example, if I'm a single mom and I meet a married mom, there might be some wonky relationship there. Or if I'm a single mom and I meet a single person who doesn't have kids, there might be something going on there. Or somebody could, like, create some sort of weird dynamic in the interpersonal. Because of our relationship to our own identity

Marty:Okay.

Marita:writes down how they hold themselves. We look at how it evolves over time, like, you know, ten years ago, Composer was very close to the top of the list for me. Now I don't even think it's in the top ten. So

Marty:Mm

Marita:our sense of ourselves is always evolving, and then how we interact with others is always evolving, depending on whether, how we encounter our own space. So like, if I make something about me wrong, and then I encounter somebody else who activates that aspect, I will be like, it'll create something wonky, it'll create what I call this a locational dynamic.

Marty:A dislocational dynamic.

Marita:locational dynamic, so you have a location, I got my location, you got your location. And our big challenge is, can we, like, not pick up the rope and create a dynamic? Can we just be with other people?

Marty:Uh huh.

Marita:are and as they're not, as we are and as we are not. We say in

Marty:Right. Right. Mm

Marita:humble goal. The humble goal is to be able to walk down the street without being a weirdo, depending on who's coming up on the other side of the street. Not being overly nice, or not, like, pretending you're talking on your phone, or not, like, looking the other way, or not saying hi and then they don't say hi, or they say hi and you don't say hi.

Marty:hmm. Right.

Marita:From just based on the split second judgment, right?

Marty:Can I just give a quick illustration? I think it's an illustration because I'm Christian. I was raised Christian. I identify as Christian. It might not be that it's not the top, but, but, um, it's important to me. I mean, on OkCupid, you can say whether your religious affiliation is important to you or not. And, um, Uh, it just bothers me to no end when some, when people on my end of the political spectrum say, oh, those damn Christians, wait a minute, I'm one of them. So there's a difference between my identification and my relationship to what it is to be a Christian.

Marita:Right. So basically, so while this is not, there's other spaces that Whetstone 2 goes through. This was, you asked me what was missing. This is what was missing.

Marty:Ah,

Marita:still getting jammed up around stories and context about locational aspects that had never been distinguished. When we started looking at the stories, what we found was that they were often Like in a coaching context, stories like stories about something. They were often like closed systems. Like, like every, all roads led back to the same poopy spot. You know what I mean? Like there was no, it wasn't an open system. It wasn't a possibility based relationship to these different locations. It was very fixed. And so we started to just like do all the work, distinguish these things and getting air into it. So that when you are encountering another person. You can relate to them, like you can transcend the dynamics that inevitably emerge,

Marty:Yes.

Marita:and stay more present to you.

Marty:like when an IFS practitioner does that, you know, has to get okay with the community within talking to this part about what's going on with it. I mean,

Bill:got to be negotiated. Marty, I, I just want to jump in. So that's got to be negotiated. And I, I love the direction that, that you're, you're taking this conversation, that Marita seems to be willing to go in, which is to, how do we equate what's happening out there and that transform the world idea? Love the world. How do we love the world is the question that you said you'd like to cover here today. How do we love the world? And, uh, in the IFS model, when a part shows up, In a non loving way, we get curious about it, uh, which is a lot different than what happens from what I can see in, in the external world. Somebody else out there is different than me and I, I I don't have my first impulse to be, get, to get curious about them to, to understand that difference. I brace myself for conflict, and I don't know if that speaks for everybody or the majority, but that certainly is the problem, or something that would block loving the world for me.

Marty:Yeah. Cancel culture is an example, right? We don't love those people. They're different. Cancel them out.

Marita:you know, it's funny because, um, so, two things. One is, and I think this is also related to IFS, is um, like as we do that work around the location, you love, you heal those parts of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So that you can be with another, so you're not kind of like, who you are, who you are not, relative to another person. And we talk a lot about how we use other people to, like, prove something, or manage something. Like, can we just leave people alone? If a person doesn't know what they are without agreeing to so there's definitely like, a loving the self, so as to love the world. piece is getting that everybody has a unique location and therefore all locations are valid. And we get to a place of like, well, naturally you feel that way, given where you're from. Like, really just get giving up the judgment. Like, if I were you, I'd feel the same way too. I probably have the exact same belief system. And like, how even two people in the same family don't have the same location because one's the middle child, one's the youngest child or whatever, right? Like, you know, like really allowing those nuances to inform what's going on. And like, let people be how they are without having to fix or change them. You know, and I love the curiosity piece that you brought up there. And, um, when you talk about that not being the first impulse, I mean, one thing I'm really aware of in Whetstone 2 in particular is that we're all animals. And I don't mean this in a pejorative way, I mean literally. Like, we are territorial, we do, we are just like, Because that's essentially that first thing that's happening when you meet someone and you're like, What do you do? Who are you? What are you about? You're actually finding out, are you with me or are you not with me? Are we the same? Are we of the same tribe? Are we gonna get along? Or are we not gonna get along, right? You guys

Marty:It's like the dogs do when they meet in the park.

Marita:sniffing each other's butts. Sniffing each other out and like we do a sniffing out

Marty:Mm hmm.

Marita:and we keep going down the list like that checks that checks Oops, wait a minute.

Marty:Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Marita:this conversation isn't gonna last very long and It's kind of like and it's a very primal in my opinion Like it's a very primal response like am I safe here or am I not safe?

Marty:Uh huh. Mm hmm.

Marita:And you know, it can go all the way from falling in love to genocide I mean like it's it's very It's as close as you can be and it's as far as you can be.

Marty:What, what are examples of transformation at the non individual level? Like, what, just so we could, like, imagine that sort of thing, what, what are examples of that having happened or has it never happened before?

Marita:I feel like I've read about Um, communities, like I'm thinking now there was a community like, like Sierra Leone or like one of those communities in Africa where there was like a genocidal, um, experience which then healed itself and had a huge reparative conversation. Like I read an article about this years ago and I can't remember which one it was exactly. Like I, so I feel like it does happen rarely, but I don't have it that we're, um, fundamentally in a conversation. Well, most people aren't in a conversation for transformation.

Marty:right,

Marita:So then when you talk about a conversation for societal transformation, like who is leading those conversations, right?

Marty:right. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking maybe of what South Africa, giving up apartheid and becoming more integrated. Now, I haven't been there. I don't know what it's like to live there now, but is, is that potentially an example?

Marita:Well, I guess it depends on what we mean by transformation. So

Marty:Mm hmm. Mm

Marita:when you ask the question, what do you mean by transformation?

Marty:Well, there's a whole new way of being possible.

Marita:Well, then you can maybe, I mean, you know, we're kind of, you could say that the birth of democracy in the United States is a new way of being. I

Marty:Right, right.

Marita:mean, civilizations evolve

Marty:hmm. Yeah. And corporate teams to, you know, it's not unheard of that. And I'm working with a team now that is, I hope, on the verge of a transformation where they're on the way because they were Talking about each other in, you know, in spiteful ways, basically, and now they're recognizing that that actually is not contributing in the way they want to their bottom line, and that they need to cohere more, they need to communicate better, they need to have those conversations rather than harbor them in themselves, and so they're starting to talk, so I say they're on the way to a transformation. So what about this question, um, Like with IFS, there's a self of the capital S to relate the smaller parts to it. Do we need that to transform society? And do we have that? Is there such a thing?

Marita:the equivalent of the society with a capital S. Okay. I have no idea. I mean,

Marty:Is that necessary?

Marita:well, I would submit that and, you know, I'm just playing from my perspective and I would love to hear what you guys have to say about this. So, For me, transformation begins with a conversation. There's a leadership piece, like who is having the conversation. Many people who have had conversations for transformation have led that. But the thing that I feel like, there's like transformation and then there's transformation. Like there's a transformation from which a person never goes back.

Marty:Right,

Marita:in our human lives, we kind of relearn a lot of the same lessons. And then there's a question of like, what is the transformation of humanity such that like, we don't need to do some of that stuff anymore? And sort of, we don't need to do some of that stuff, like we are, it isn't the way it used to be. Like we are, you know, doing some things, but it's like, what would have some, some just perspectives be obsolete, and we just don't need to do that anymore .

Bill:Love that question.

Marty:I mean, I, I always have assumed that that was, that that had happened, for example, in Space Odyssey 2001, for example, to take They're living in this You know, if satellite basically, they must and they're eating differently and they, they, they, they've got, and I, I just always assume, well, they've gone through some sort of transformation.

Marita:I thought it was great for that.

Marty:Yeah. Right. I'm also curious what you are thinking about this as the, the, real IFS practitioner here. Um, you know, do you, do you see a parallel is and, and what would it, how would that, how would societal transformation happen? Is it like, it would happen with an individual in a, in a IFS coaching context? Mm

Bill:to think so. I would love to think that the IFS model could be applied. I love that idea of society with a capital S just as there is self with a capital S. I think that would be required and maybe this is similar to non violent communication. Training and facilitation is a neutral party that can facilitate a conversation between polarized views.

Marty:hmm. Mm

Bill:And do it in such a way that that's approached with curiosity and compassion, where parties feel safe enough to be able to reveal what's true for

Marty:hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Bill:And to do so in such a way that that their polarized opposites or opposition can hear and then understand something that they, they didn't understand before. One of the things that has really been working well, uh, that I've developed as I work with my coaching clients using that at this model is to ask them. to ask their parts to play a little game as we learn about the target part, the part that we want to explore and get to know. The game goes like this. Um, temporarily, uh, uh, the goal of the game is to learn one new thing, that these other parts didn't know about our target part. In, in the internal family system, there's a constant barrage, practically, for some of us, of, of internal conflict and war. So And, and, uh, in order to get parts to suspend that war long enough for an exploration to take place, they need to agree to do so. And so my efforts to lighten it up for my, for these parts of my clients is a suggestion that we play the game of trying to learn one thing that they don't already know or think that they know about the target part.

Marty:Mm hmm.

Bill:And a little pro tip that I offer the parts is that if they will temporarily suspend judgment, and trade that in for curiosity. that they've got a pretty good chance of winning the game. And we're not competing against each other. We're just competing for ourselves to see if we can learn one new thing. And it's incredible what happens in that space because now the agenda, the, the listening and the presence of the parts that aren't being explored shifts entirely from, from that, let's just say, wounded injury. based listening. How are you going to hurt me now? Or let me find out how you're wrong. Let me prove that you're wrong. From that place to conclude everything I've just said, can that same idea be applied to society? But we were to gather opposing forces together and ask them to play a game with us. And that game would be, see if you can learn one thing that you didn't know about your enemy.

Marty:the way, I think this is this I'm harking back to an episode many years, not years, but many episodes ago with Leslie Jones where we talked about the spiral method Which the general point of which is to bring in games so that we can learn more about each other and Before we, you know, get to the work. Um, so that, that, that resonates there. What, what are you hearing in what Bill is saying? Do you, and part of, and, and I'm interested if you find that this curiosity piece arises naturally in the Whetstone context, and if so, why?

Marita:Okay, so from what Bill was sharing, um, I think that the, the bridge that would need to be crossed would be an enrollment in that, that pursuit would be worthwhile for both parties. So, like, when I'm disintegrated, it's easy to enroll me because I don't want to be in that painful space. But when you have two people or two parties. Like, getting them to, like, actually bankrupt, um, this sort of way of being, uh, where we're unwilling to be curious, right?

Marty:Hmm.

Marita:It's very interesting because it's like, we don't want to be curious.

Marty:Hmm.

Marita:We don't want to know. We don't want to know what, we don't want to humanize. So, it's like, it actually would require, and this I feel like is weirdly, like, there's like a transformation side of it, like, you know, Russian dolls or something like that. And the first transformation even being, like, A willingness to humanize people on the, you know, our relation with other people . I mean, that already can be such a huge, uh, challenge for people . So that's my first piece.

Marty:Right. That's great. I mean, we see that in, you know, in the political conversation. Now, I'm sorry, I keep bringing that up, but it's a great example of, you know, people not humanizing each other, but just calling names or making accusations. And they're not, there's no curiosity. You know, what, what, what is really going on in that human being? That's not going on. And a lot of the time.

Marita:And like, and it's so like, you know, like the snake eating its tail because the other perspective is so threatening that I don't dare let down my guard to be curious and da da da da da, right? So, so it really requires. Some wherewithal to from the within the self and or within the spirit or within your community But there's some way to be able to put that down to like have that conversation nice

Marty:By the way, just a little plug here. The movie Conclave is about this, I say, and it's very well done and you know that it takes that, that's what happens. I don't want to give away, but at one point, one of the characters has to say, wait a minute, we're, we're demonizing them. And is that what we stand for here? And it changes everything,

Marita:nice Yeah, truly. So that, I mean, when we talk about how to love the world, so, I mean, Whetstone 2, the question of Whetstone 2 is not how to transform the world. The question of Whetstone 2 is how to love the world.

Marty:right? Yep.

Marita:And from there, it's like the transformation occurs in the self and the self's ability to get that possibility exists in the world, for the world,

Marty:Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Marita:Being open to the possibility of possibility in the world. And then,

Marty:now say, say, what does that mean? Because the average listener would be like, what?

Marita:yeah, so it's like, When we talk about possibility, um, or transformation, or the truth, or self with a capital S, it's like acknowledgment of our being separate from our stories about our being and whatever we created around those stories , and um, that we can put down, like that we can be, that we can encounter the self fully. Without having to go through the, the stories or the coping strategies or the, the stuff and have a relationship with the self directly. So, and then possibility is, from my perspective, I'm writing a newsletter about this right now, so I'm kind of like playing with these very ideas. This is not, this is Rita's opinion. Rita's playing with ideas. So then possibility or transformation is what emerges when, when that being is allowed to create.

Marty:Mm hmm.

Marita:no longer just being, you're no longer just presence. It's like, okay, what does presence create to experience presence in the world? Because we are going to create things because we're material beings. We're going to make some choices and do some actions. And then from presence, it's authentic. It's authentic to presence and it's of possibility. The presence that we are is, has, doesn't have the constraints of the stories that we

Marty:Right. Right. So, if you don't mind, I'm curious, because we're all musicians.

Marita:huh.

Marty:And you, and you even mentioned that that was once very high on your list of identifications. Is there an analogy or something worth noticing about the way music goes, gets transformed, right? Because we would, we would say, like, the reason why Bach is still played today is because he transformed music, or Beethoven, or Stravinsky. Is there something for us to learn about transformation and about, um, this, this relationship between the individual and the, the group when we look at music and how it naturally, because it's, it's, it's kind of a natural phenomenon. We could relate to this potentially.

Marita:Bill, do you want to talk about that? I mean, I'm happy to jump in. I've been talking a lot for a minute, so.

Bill:I was just, uh, so happy to be included as a musician. I, I rarely even pick up my guitar anymore, but it used to be my whole life. It, it used to be my location. I love, I love that use of the word location. Absolutely. I'm, I was the guy that played the guitar. That's right. I was. And, and I used to write songs. I used to perform in coffee shops. And it has been 10 years, at least 10 years since I have performed a song or even played and sang a full song for myself. It's certainly been at least that long since I've written a song. So, I mean, I I'm kind of still kind of stuck back there. Am I a musician still? It's in my history. And because I have a guitar hanging in my bedroom, does that mean I mean, I'm a musician? I don't

Marita:exactly the kind of thing that we would coach to in Westone 2. Like, that like, dissonance, to use a musical term, around your location of the musician. And like, getting that resolved. So that, you know, you can, cause in that moment, when you're thinking there is this like dissociation from self, cause we're like, I used to be and yada, yada, and yada, yada, and it's funny how, like, just like these little bits of our identity are so wobbly, like it's who we are and who we've been. And yet we're like, I don't know, what happened?

Marty:Well, that's so funny. Yes.

Marita:We're meeting other wobbly people on the planet. And we're all just like weebles trying to, not weebles, like we're all weebles. It's. It's very silly , but anyway, that's a great, that's a great example.

Bill:So I want to, speaking of examples, uh, there's two things on my mind. So let me just say. We probably need to start pumping the brakes pretty soon. We got about nine minutes before I have a hard stop. But secondly, what occurred about 15 minutes ago was I got this thought about something that happened last night. And because I couldn't kind of put together, how does this relate to this conversation? I didn't say anything about it. But I think I'm going to take a little bit of a risk and tell you about it and see what there is to look at within it. Is that okay? All right. So it's going to require a little bit of storytelling, Marty, I'm going to need you to help me be as concise as I can. You know how I can go on with my stories.

Marty:I'll just do this.

Bill:There we go. Okay. So my wife loves gardening. She got involved in a local community farm that is half a mile from her house because I love her and she asked me to help her from time to time. I go help her. But I'll tell you what, if it was just me, a single man, not married to a woman that loves farming, I wouldn't go near that farm. I wouldn't shop there. I wouldn't shop in their farm store. I wouldn't help them at all. So over the last three or four years now, as that farm has been developing, I've gotten more interested. I've actually begun to enjoy my volunteer time there and I'm a little bit more engaged and invested. So last night there was, as far as I know the first gathering of all of the volunteers and, and in that experience, it was a one hour experience. We were handed a volunteer sheet that had check marks on it for what areas we would be interested in volunteering for. And I had a real internal crisis happening that was so great that it was almost difficult for me to really even listen to what was being presented. Because as I looked at that sheet, what I was sorting out was, do I want to do this or not? Marty, you've heard me talk about, in fact we had an episode, only do what you want to do. And I ended up marking a couple of things on there. For me it was, I'll help with social media and the website, and I'll work the farm store on Saturdays occasionally. But I mean, I was really holding back. I mean, I wanted to put all kinds of disclaimers on there. So that was going on. I can't speak for my wife and what she experienced. Other than I saw that she put a lot of check marks on her volunteer page. So as we're talking about society and transformation and the individual, I kind of think that there's something to say in all of that from that experience last night.

Marty:Mm

Marita:you want to share what you see?

Bill:Well, part of it is some, some history is that part of the neighborhood has objected to the farm being there. They thought it would drive values down. So there's been, there's been some conflict within the neighborhood around it. And as a consequence, the, the farm, The builder, it's, it's the home builder that actually is sponsoring the farm and started it and funded, funds it. So, Jim was the guy that ran the meeting last night with the volunteers. He's maybe one of those nonviolent communication facilitators. He's a great example of that. He's saying, here's the facts. Here's, I want to hear what you have to say. What ideas do you have and what problems are there that we can address? And I was just, that's another piece and aspect of this. Over the last three or four years, this whole dynamic has transformed, probably in large part thanks to him, where they have gone from paying farmers to come do the farm to doing all volunteer now. And that requires that those of us that are in the neighborhood need to step up and say, like me, I, okay, a little bit, I'll start with just a little bit, where it's going to require probably a whole lot more than just that from the entire, from more members of the community. Like, like an enrollment, like I'm into this. I believe in this.

Marita:Well, as you're speaking, I'm reminded of, um, a woman that Martin and I knew and her work we look at in Whetstone 2. Her name is Debbie Borza and her daughter was the youngest passenger on flight 93 and she created this commitment to world peace and she used to say, Like, a world where, like, all we want is for us to be ourselves and to have our lives work. And how do we create a world where everyone is included and no one is left out? Which is kind of interesting because it's like a little tautological, like, everyone is included and no one is left out. But it kind of, it matters that it's both said. And it's like, like in that thing, like, how do we include, I remember talking to her about this, like, she's talking about going swimming with her younger daughter and she didn't want to, or I don't know, like their opinions and preferences and all this stuff. And it actually like requires sitting with other people and like, how, how is everyone included ?

Marty:hmm.

Marita:Where do we agree? Where do we align? Where do we disagree? Where are we going to counter offer? Where can we negotiate? Where can we compromise? Where do we have boundaries? Like Like actually doing the work of relating and being different from one another, but including all of that in the process, right? Because it's not about an answer, it's just about that everyone is part of the process.

Marty:Right, right.

Bill:voice, everyone's preferences is, is acknowledged as valuable.

Marita:And everyone has a choice.

Marty:Which is different to me that it, it suggests different possibilities than what we were saying earlier, which is that you need some neutral party to be able to sort out the conflicts or you know, the differences. What if everybody's equal? You know, it doesn't have to be some, because then you raise that, then you get the question, well, is he really neutral? Like, is he really treating us all the same? So what if, like, for example, the mastermind, right, the concept of a mastermind, there's nobody in charge. Everybody is equal and everybody's voice gets

Marita:hmm.

Marty:Right? And then, and then we, as a group, decide what, what to do with that. Um, so I think that I just want to throw that into the mix that may, maybe it's in, it's not even yet in our vocabulary, how to talk about these things, because we automatically have. You know, the, the neutral versus the, the triggering and we have the right versus the wrong and, and we might need a whole new way to

Marita:Yeah. And that, again, is sort of like in that Russian doll, like a, a K to play in this, is kind of giving up that it's, That there is an answer or that it's going to go your, I mean, life is going to keep happening. Reality is not going to stop. So it's not like that's at risk. It's like that our version of what it's supposed to look like, like that, that's not what the goal is.

Marty:Right.

Marita:be a different goal. My name is

Marty:So, I know we need to wrap up, but I want you to be able to tell our listeners, Marita, who I hope will be interested in. And, uh, in Whetstone and Whetstone 2 after this conversation, how would they get in touch with you? Where do they, where do they meet you in this world?

Marita:My is Marita Bollici, B O L L I C I. Um, there's a website the Whetstone Seminars dot and you can easily contact anybody through the website, you know, places you can fill out your name and what you want to talk about and all the jazz.

Marty:So it's Whetstone seminars.

Marita:the Whetstone Seminars

Marty:Okay, great.

Marita:And it's also my email is marita at the whetstone seminars dot

Marty:Very good. Very good. Cool. I, any last words? I, I, I do want to say that. It's, um, it's really a privilege to have you on, um, Rita. Um, this question, how do we love the world? It would take a huge heart to even ask that question. And so I thank you for being in the fabric of our world.

Marita:com. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been a real pleasure to be with both of you.

Bill:It's been great to see you and talk with you again, Marita. Thanks for joining

Marita:Absolutely. Thank you.