Bill: Welcome. This is the True You Podcast, and my name is Bill Tierney. I'm a certified IFS practitioner and a compassionate Results coach, and I'm joined by my co-host, Dr. Martin Kettelhut, author and leadership coach. Marty, is that the way you want me to introduce you as, or do you refer to yourself and.

Marty: I was listening to your introduction of you. I noticed you added the word compassionate.

Bill: Yeah, that is, that is new. Uh, results Coach doesn't really point to how I help people get those results. Compassion does.

Marty: It is a very cool addition.

Bill: Thank you.

Marty: Love it.

Bill: Speaking of cool, we've got a cool new guest joining us today,

Alison: Great segue.

Bill: Dyer. Alison Dyer. And I have known each other since 2019 when we were both invited to meet each other in our, uh, mutual therapist's, uh, office. Uh, and the reason that she invited us to meet each other is because we were, she knew we were both gonna be traveling from Spokane, Washington, where we live. Allison lives about 40 minutes from me and on the north side of Spokane. I'm living, uh, almost all the way to Idaho and Liberty Lake Washington. We joined downtown, uh, Spokane to meet with Brenda, who introduced us to, to prepare us for what to expect in our level one IFS training. And it was great. It was great to meet you, Allison, in that setting. And fun really to have Brenda talk about it in, in the way she did with us and prepare us. Uh, and, and we began to travel from Spokane to Seattle together, and we went through our level one training again, uh, together. And, and then Covid hit. And we continued our level one, but over Zoom, and ever since then, Allison and I, and also Rochelle Miller, uh, a third person who also lives in Spokane, who's an IFS therapist and went through that level one training, the three of us have stayed in connection meeting either on Zoom or face-to-face every once, one or two weeks. Uh, in fact, we just got back from a retreat where we traveled up to the Oregon coast, uh, for a little three day getaway, and, and now the timing's great. Allison's just fresh back from that as I am. And Allison, welcome to the show. I.

Alison: you. I'm really excited to be here. This has been fun. I've been really taking notes when I think of something that's interesting, um, as we're gonna explore later, I'm fascinated by the use of imagination connecting, um, with the divine or soul, whatever language you use.

Bill: So I'm gonna, uh, refer to the introduction that you provided. Uh, so IFS, uh, excuse me. Alison is a certified IFS practitioner. Her focus is on building relationships in our inner world so that we may have a positive impact on the outside world. She's exploring the idea of connecting with the wisdom of our soul and our humanity. She's someone who loves learning and going deep into the world of imagination.

Alison: Yep.

Bill: So just before we hit record, we were talking a little bit about what you'd like to talk about today, and you just mentioned it yourself. So why don't you get us started and Marty and I both will meet you with our curiosity. Uh, mostly we're here to listen, but we're gonna probably ask you some questions so that we can wet our whistle on the curiosity that we just.

Alison: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about that right before we came on trying to figure out how would I start a conversation on imagination and how that's actually shown up in my life. And I realized from a very young age as a child, I was very, um, drawn to my inner world. I was kind of a loner. I experienced abuse, pretty severe abuse in the hands of babysitters, um, when I was seven and eight years old. And I remember hiding a lot in my cl in my closet with my stuffed animals, I still have two of those stuffed animals with me today. I have, actually three, I have a pink elephant that is a massive part of my internal world that I've created with my 8-year-old parts, and there's. Elephants and unicorns and berries and one of my eight year olds lives in a bird's nest up in the, in the tree high above everything. She feels very safe there and it occurred to me that that is such a through line for me that I escaped or survived with my imagination intact. And part of that imagination for me included my understanding of the divine, which is. Which has morphed over time. I was little, my parents didn't really go to church when I was younger, but I always had this conversation with God going on in my head. Talk with them in the schoolyard or her and ask questions, and I was just obsessed with this idea that I couldn't say God's name in vain. So in my little kid mind, I would like whisper it inside and be like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I would just make myself laugh. Um. Because I just didn't know, but I just felt that presence and it was that, that got me through a lot. And then when I started going to church, I was about 13, I think. My brother went to church, I kind of followed him along and my parents followed us later, which um, was a disaster for me. But anyway, when I kind of found Jesus and kind of went in that whole Christian path, um, that actually probably, in some ways, caused more harm because I really was introduced to this idea of sin and that I was terrible. that coincided with my belief that those IFS words, the exiles, held the memory of the abuse. I didn't really remember it. I just knew something terrible had happened to me, but I had a deep sense of shame that language of the church really. Um. Reinforced that belief that I was bad and shameful. so my imagination shifted a little bit in that I would started journaling and I would journal what I thought of as the divine and still think that way. But the surprising thing for me was that there was so much love there, was not what I was getting in church. So it was kind of this weird. Um, living in two worlds, kind of, and I

Bill: Okay. I, I gotta, I gotta slow you down a little bit. You, there's a lot of stuff here that you're sharing with me. And I got a ton of questions, but, and I also wanna give Marty an operate an an opportunity to jump in with any questions that you might have, Marty as you've been listening along.

Marty: Well, go ahead. You've got, uh, you've got quite a bit there. Um, I'm, I'm right here with you, but I, I hear you say you've got a couple things you wanna jump in on already.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So there was abuse, there was hiding in a closet with stuffed animals. Uh, and, and, uh, you began to talk about those animals, that you still have those stuffed animals.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, uh, and then you, you made reference to, you have an 8-year-old that lives in a tree. So I, for, for our listeners who are not especially, uh, tuned to the Internal Family Systems model, I, I want them to understand that you don't actually have an 8-year-old living in a tree.

Alison: Yeah, you're right. That's a good, that's a good thing to bring up. Yes. I did get ahead of myself, so when I started seeing Brenda and we started really exploring in. Such a deep way, and I started understanding that I have parts of me, I, I came across these eight years old. I have several eight year olds, and each 8-year-old holds a different memory of what happened. And so the 8-year-old that lives in the tree house has a different memory than the one that holds the, the walks around with the pink elephant. And so for those, parts of me, my connection to them was through the imagination.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: It in through that imagination that they could meet up with the self, the self of me in a way that felt safe to them. wasn't, it wasn't the church, it wasn't the God of the church. It was me, the energy of myself.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: That same imagination that helped you to survive the abuse that that, that helped you to hide and protect yourself was used later in the internal family systems model with your therapist Brenda, who helped you to, um, use that imagination to connect with your parts.

Alison: Yes.

Bill: Yeah. Great.

Alison: Yeah. I think that's really where my love affair started with bringing in the imagination into conversations around healing, especially around trauma. Um, 'cause I do think that's where we, we connect with our exiles that often live in our subconscious is through our imagination. It's through that imagination that our parts are free to create a whole new place to live that's safe. I have, mean, I could go on for hours. I have so many things in my world. There's whole universes where there's planets with the silver string that's attached by parts that are flung far away, and there are attached by the silver string to me, that's where they wanna live. I'm okay with that.

Marty: I that it's, I love this. I mean it, one thing it. Work on ourselves that, that, that it's much more vivid. Like if we are, if we employ the, the imagination and, and give it texture and qualities, you know, then the, it is gonna be enjoyable to return to and, and, and inviting to be a part of that inner work. I think that's just brilliant.

Bill: And I

Alison: Thanks.

Bill: I oh, go ahead. You got more to.

Marty: Well, I am just wondering, uh, like for, for people for whom this might be brand new. 'cause I mean it's sparking all these things. I mean, like there, there are certain places where I do use my imagination, like when I take care of my plants, they have personalities, they.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Right. but I don't do that as much like in the kitchen or in my exercise, and I could Right. So I, um, I'm just wondering, for somebody for whom this is, be brand new, like what's, uh, what's the step into that? You know, where do we, um. You

Alison: Yeah, I, I see what you're saying. Yeah. You know, the first thing that comes to mind, which I'm really starting to love, is the what if questions. Because I think for, for a lot of folks, this is gonna sound really far out there in woo woo, and I get it. I get it. So for me, I always think in terms of like, well, what if it's possible?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: What if know, I don't know. But I know for my clients that I, that don't have the very, the vivid imagination or the. The experience of it for them or, or they doesn't make sense to them. If I just post like, well, what if it's true? Or what if your parts could create something that felt safe to them? would that look like? if, you know, what if it's all a bunch of hooey? Okay. What if.

Marty: Yeah. I love that. Like I. Surprisingly large number of clients who know the ring cycle inside and out like Stephen Colbert does.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: like

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: decide any, any moment in the whole, um, trilogy and The Hobbit as

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and, and it all meant, and so sometimes that's a good way into conversational, what if this were happening in middle Earth? You know, what if. Or was caught in this situation, what would he do?

Alison: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and if you think about it, you can even go to the more concrete world. Like, um, bill and I were talking about this Rochelle that I read somewhere that was like between when the Wright brothers flew their, their plane and we landed on the moon. 66 years had passed.

Marty: Wow.

Alison: Right.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: what if our ideas about how we wanna go somewhere or Mars, it was like, um, I took a deeper drive. I can't remember how many years it was like 51 years I think, between when we landed on the moon to when we landed on Mars. that's not a lot of time in between, but it starts with, well, what if

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: get somewhere? Then, the human mind is so creative and powerful, and that's the imagination part of it. Like it takes imagination to think about, I wanna go to the moon, or I'm gonna send this telescope a million miles away from Earth so I can peer into the farthest reaches of the galaxy. What if that's possible? And here we have it.

Marty: Yeah. I'll just say one more, more thing and then I'll, I'll hand it back to you, bill. But, um. I am very interested in science and, the way science works and why it's an effective way for us to get to know what's real in the world. And science always starts with what

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: What if we gave a little bit of the disease so that we build up an immune to it? Oh, vaccinations, right? Comes out of that. Or, um, what if the reason why we see whales, um, lactating is because they're actually mammals in the ocean,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: know, and that and we find out, oh, they actually are.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: So I think that the imagination plays. I just wanna say that I think the imagination plays a much bigger role than we give it credit for.

Alison: Me too. Me too. And I think it's easy to discount it because, you know, I can, my inner world and my imagination is just as real to me as the two of you. But it's my inner world. Right. Um, other people's inner world will be different, but it's the same. It's, it's, I'm imagining something and for me, it's then become real.

Marty: it's useful, it's meaningful.

Alison: Right, right.

Bill: Brenda is the one who helped me to get past my resistance to allowing my imagination.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: To be, uh, perceived as anything that, that, that was valid. I, because I was using my imagination, I discounted it, the experiences that I had entirely.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: for example, in an IFS session, Brenda's inviting me to go inside and connect with my parts. And the very first session that I let my guard down enough to. Actually attempt to go inside and connect with a part to hear from it that I went in and asked a question and she coached me up nicely, she said, don't make it. Don't, don't try to figure out the answer here. Just ask the question and wait to wait to hear an answer. And I had the thought after answering the question because blah, blah, blah, whatever the question was, there was an answer. Well, it was because blah, blah, blah. And, and, uh, Brenda must have seen a look on my face and she said, what, what's going on in there? And I said, well, I think I'm just making this up. I mean, I just asked that question and the thought that came to me was it was because of this, this, and this. And she said, so you think you're just making that up? And I said, well, yeah, I mean, what else, what else could be happening here? I think I'm just imagining this. And she says, well, what do you think the imagination is for? Think of the word image. Imagination is the core of the word imagination. So it's an image. Uh, but you actually heard something like an answer. And, and you, you, you're labeling that a thought. What if in fact the imagination is there? Like as the midway point. Now these aren't exactly her words. I've kind of evolved the idea since then. What if the imagination is there as the midway point between the conscious and the unconscious? And so if you wanna ask your unconscious a question, if the unconscious wants to answer it, it needs to have a midway point to be able to meet you so you can hear the answer. What if that's what the imagination is for?

Marty: Interesting.

Bill: so since then, that skeptical part of me has been kind of watching that and saying, well, yeah, what if, as you say, what if that's what's going on with the imagination? What if that's the place that I can go to ask questions and be heard, and, and listen to hear the answers? And have them have them, have them heard.

Alison: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marty: The, um, just a, a sort of side note. Um, in, Plato's system of, of epistemology knowledge, the, there are. are four parts and the first one is AIA in in re in, um, French in Greek, which means image making, it's one more basic ways that we know through image

Alison: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: so, it's a crucial part of how we know anything.

Alison: Right.

Bill: So I want, I wanna get back to your, your, your history, uh, that you were sharing with us. You said that you felt God's presence.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: You and your brother went to church first, and your parents followed you there, so there's a whole lot that that I wanna invite you to unpack there if you want to, but we don't have to get bogged down there if you don't want to. I'm, I'm just curious about it. How did you find your way to church without your parents?

Alison: well, they would drop us off, like we would go to youth group. That was Chris's friend had went through there, so Chris got there when I was old enough. I tagged along and so we were dropped off. The only reason my parents went was because my mom was worried about what the people at church would say about her if she just dropped her children off. So her key into church was more about what it would look like. She didn't want people to know that life at home was hellish, so we were gonna go to church together now. Um, you know, and that's how they kind of got into it. And then,

Marty: Interesting.

Alison: yeah. Yeah, So they got involved. My mom eventually got into the more Pentecostal movement and my dad went to church. You know, he was kind of one of the leaders, and my parents—I don't remember how they found out exactly—but I had this ability, like I said, I would write things down that felt like they were channeled from the Divine. And I could see things, like I would see an Angel around my bed. I could see what I thought was Jesus. I had all these abilities that were just normal to me. Well, my parents found out and so they, we started this weekly Bible study it was my job to channel messages from Jesus. So I was asked regularly, Well, do you see him? What is, what's, what's he saying? What does he want us to know? And I became the little family priestess. Which totally, yeah, it was bizarre, which totally took something that was and special for me, and I, ended, just ended up just shoving it down. And also during that time, my was heavily into to drinking and drugs and was not doing well at all. And the family that was trying to help him. Their son was one of the youth leaders and so he kind of took me under his wing and he would teach me to drive and you know, all these things. And then he comes over, I was like 17 at the time and he was like, think 23. And he knocks on the door and I was talking to him and he says, well, you know, he tells me, I know, I know that you are in love with me and so I will marry you when you're 18. I am like, uh, no, I'm not in love with you. Don't wanna get married. So I came in the house, told my mom, and she called hi. His mom called my mom and said I'd ruined her son's life. And I was bad. And I was awful. And so it just devastated me on so many levels, 'cause there were very few people in my world at the time that were interested in me. Everybody was focused on Chris. And I was the perfect one. I was the one that was the good Christian. I was the one that could talk to God. I had all these things, and my role in the family was to be perfect and be everybody's caretaker. And so when somebody was showing me some interest, I thought, wow, I'm, somebody sees me. And then to have it be, well, actually, somehow he. Anyway, that was my first foray into abuse within the Christian Church. I had two more experiences of that, but I don't wanna get ahead of myself if you guys have questions.

Bill: No, I'm, I'm engaged of course, in listening. I, I, uh, was very curious about, about. But you described it as a shift in your experience of God

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: When you were introduced to the Christian version of God, Jesus, and sin. Yeah. Like, how old were you? What happened inside? When did that happen?

Alison: It was kind of. Because I remember we went to the uh oh Billy Graham movie. They took the youth group in I got up, went down, and did the whole thing. And at the time, it felt like, Ugh, I'm gonna get it. Now I have this end with God. And that part of it was cool, and that felt very real. I remember telling my mom, and I remember her reaction was a good reaction, but it was almost like it, it was this intuitive hit of like, I've somehow been raised in her eyes, and it was uncomfortable. And I don't, yeah, I can't do that, that's all I can get from that experience. But it was like my first noticing of like, okay, there's a shift here, and I'm not quite sure what's happening. And that's when I kind of started being this like priest deceived kind of person. And then, um. And then the more I got into the church and then I was having experiences of being abused and it was the message of the sin, like it became something that was innocent as a child. This conver ongoing conversation to the rules, to your bad, to you have to now go and proselytize so. I would lead Bible studies in junior high. I was starting bible studies up with my friends, and I became this little spiritual guru with my friends from junior high. And it was just this weird persona that I kind of stepped into that just, um, reinforced that I was supposed to be perfect that I had already got from my family. those experiences with my friends and being that I. Leader that, 'cause I could, and I, I do have that intuitive psychic abilities where I do, I can channel things. I can and I'm just starting to kind of take that back in ownership. But at the time, through the context of the Christian Church, it felt sullied and so I kind of buried it in some ways for years. Um,

Marty: The, the original relationship to God, you mean got buried?

Alison: yeah, that ability to. Like when I was a child, I mean, I didn't think about Sinna except for saying the God God's name in vain. That was as far as I got, and then when I went to the church and, and I did the whole thing and I started the pressure from my brother going his direction, the pressure I was going with my own relationship with God, that was still there, but on top of that was the church. So I still had these abilities and it was getting the church's message, the church's message, that you're bad, that you're sinful, that you have to do all these things. Kind of put itself on top of it. On top of my beliefs.

Marty: So, and I mean in the context of the True You Podcast, um, could you tell at that point the difference between what, what was the true relationship to God in you and, and what was foreign or false or, or. did it did, was there confusion or, or how did, how did you reconcile that

Alison: know, I'm not sure I did until recently, to be honest, Marty. I think,

Marty: interesting.

Alison: think it's been through the, my work with IFS and the work I've done in unpacked and unpacking that I can look back on it now and see that it was actually, um, like your question made me remember that I had this. memory of the abuse, I had like a bookend. I, when I hit adolescence and my hormones kicked in, my brain could kind of start thinking differently. I started really feeling like something had happened and between this space, that was really, really, really bad. And so that sense of. Badness

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: the church's message of bad coalesced. so I started internally unraveling under the weight of that and I don't think I really realized that. Plus putting it together right now.

Bill: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alison: fun. So it wasn't until I was starting to feel like this undercurrent of, man, I'm really, really bad. The church is right, so I better do all of these things. that's when I, my shift in God turned from me walking merrily along to me. This image of me as a very small child covered in tar at the. Basement and me trying to get all these other people to heaven somehow thinking, well, if that happens, then maybe God will let me sneak into the back door. I believed that for decades. I'm like, that's, I have to keep doing this to maybe God can kind of sneak in, um, to go to the church.

Marty: and how did that, how, how did that begin to change? You said it was through work with, with IFS.

Alison: Um, yeah, that would, because I started, when I, when I started getting in contact with self,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: I didn't think by the time I got to Brenda, I'll briefly go through the other things with the church 'cause it'll make more sense to the complete damage I had When I was in my early twenties, I was working at Humane Christian Camp and my boss was horribly sexually abusive. Um, and just. was awful. I ended up quitting. Um, 'cause he would, I'd go to his office, I'd have to kneel down in front of him to open the safe 'cause I was in charge of money, which probably crack you up, bill. Maybe. I was in charge of the money. Um, um, doing bookkeeping. And, um, he would look at me with my, and he just completely would undress me and ask me what sin I'd gotten into that weekend. And I hadn't dated, I mean, I just was so afraid of boys and whatever. I just never really dated then I quit. I was gonna go to a different church. I wanted a church that had college aged people. So I prayed and prayed and prayed, like I just, you know, God, show me where to go. And I went to this one church. There was this very vibrant pastor, early thirties, handsome, vibrant, and I just felt like, oh, this is where I'm supposed to go. So I started going to that church. I've gotten involved as a, as a worker for the junior high group, and I started noticing that he would, I would get this, he would be staring at me from the pulpit, and I just had this feeling like, oh, um, this isn't good. so, and then I would go through the line and he'd just hold my hand and it was just this like weird. And then he started asking me to lunch I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And finally I said, okay, I'll go to lunch. And that's when that started with, you know, I'm drawn to you. My marriage sucks, I wanna be your friend. from there it progressed to a, a sexual relationship. And then it was like, well, if you say anything, then the thousands of people that are gonna know Jesus because of my ministry aren't going to, he. Has written a couple of bestselling books. He was on the verge of going international and so he was a big deal in the church. And, um, you know, there's secrecy. Well, I, I finally, my mom asked me, 'cause I was, I was suicidal, and she finally said, what is going on? I told her, well, she hooked me up with another Presbyterian pastor who knew him, and he told me, oh. I think his wife is crap. I think the two of you belong together, but you need to put the relationship right before God so that God can bring the two of you together. So, um, when the pastor was involved, we found out that I talked about it. Well, he hiked, he moved to a different city. He got out of Fresno and it, and, uh. Then, I don't know. I was in my third, I was 30. I just had my second kid, and all of a sudden that inner voice in my head said, you need to go to the church. You need to turn him in. I, I figured he had replaced me, like he found somebody else. So I went, I reported it. Um, I was with a therapist at the time who, who told me, I think I can help you. I could get you somebody that might support you in this. That's all I could say. Well, come to find out, there was at least 20 of us and my therapist was five of us who was involved with Ron. Ron would send. women to Tom to get help. It was bizarre. So anyway, I would, I came forward, one of the proudest moments of my life. I, I blew the whistle. He got kicked outta the church. Um, it all came out. It was in the papers. It was a couple people have written books about it. Um, so, you know, that was very empowering, but it totally messed up my relationship with God. And that was the final lid on it. And I just shut it all down for. In some ways I shut it all down for decades, but there was that little girl part of me that kept the ongoing conversation with God.

Marty: Oh, well thank God.

Alison: Right. So bring it back to IFS. That's what helped me. That part of me was able to, when I finally realized, oh. I do have this self energy. I, I, I've learned that from Brendan. I, I see it in her, and when I finally felt it inside, that was like a game changer. It's like, God, I'm home. part of me that had been buried for years was like, oh, there you are. There you are. Makes me cry.

Marty: So

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: I. I'm in a 12 step program called a

Alison: Uh.

Marty: Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families, and we just did, uh, a, a new workbook called the, the Loving Parent Guidebook. So you, you work with the, the loving parent within and, and one of the things that I've found in doing this work is that child. The child within is the, is like connection to the

Alison: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: And so it doesn't surprise me that that little girl inside was

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: that was always all along, and that brought me back to, to the truth. Um, I find that a lot of times when, when I've got like some big hairy adult problem or, or quandary that I'm in, I can go within and just connect with a little boy. The divine information we

Alison: Yep. Yeah. Right. That imagination, those kids, kids have an imagination that doesn't quit a a 4-year-old grant or almost 4-year-old. And man, she and my little girl loves to hang out together. 'cause we just can imagine anything and everything is possible. There's no, the sky's the limit.

Marty: Yeah. Beautiful.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: By the way, I'm putting a link in show notes for the Loving Parent Guidebook, which can be purchased right on the adult children.org site or through Amazon. The link I I'll put in there has,

Marty: Very,

Bill: yeah,

Marty: book. Amazing

Alison: Yeah, sounds like it.

Bill: I'm ordering one for myself right now, so

Marty: So I'm just, there's, I just wanna take a moment to. Um, acknowledge the, the, that you've been through, my goodness. And, uh, that you're here to talk about it openly and freely and having been transformed for the better by it. But my gosh, I'm so sorry. I wanna say for all that you had to go through with the, you know, the church.

Alison: Yeah, I'm not sorry, but thank you. I mean, I'm at a po I'm at a place now where it's like, I, you know, I'm not sorry 'cause I, I really, I've learned a lot.

Marty: yeah. Yeah. That's a great attitude. And so, um, curious when you're working with your clients, um. What do you find that is the, the, the hardest part for them, the most challenging part for them about using their imagination? Like is there some insight that we can pass on to our listeners about how to, how to do that?

Alison: Going back to the what if question I, I find that to be incredibly helpful and. Uh, you know, I, I'm very much energy focused. When I, when I'm with a client, I really kind of ground myself and so I'm kind of feeling into, this isn't very concrete and I apologize, but for me, I kind of feel into what I'm sensing their little parts are saying and, and if I can find a part in them that is open to the possibility that maybe. We can come out and play, or maybe there's another way of looking at it, then I try and go that way, I just, um, I just went blank.

Marty: So on the what ifs, how do I know what, what to ask, what if, like how, where do I start with the what if, if this isn't really a problem? Or what if, how do I, you know, I, I like when you, when you

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: I

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: But you know, for our listeners, how do we, like what if, what, how do I know when to

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Alison: That's a good question. You know, for me, going back to my clients. If I'm, like, I have a client now who they're very, um, bound up in their trauma, so I don't do what is with them. They're just too, they're just too hurt. They're just too tied down to the what is not possible, and so I just stay there. I. You know, I just stay there with them and slowly, slowly introduce the what ifs. And I will use something like, and Brenda taught me this is by parts of people that are so entrenched in their story and they just can't imagine something else. I'll say, well, well, what if take a drop of your belief, a drop of your burden, pull it out. Don't have to get rid of it, put it on. Brenda would use nature because I love nature. Put on a leaf, put on a flower, and just look at it and see what happens. Anything happen? No. Okay. So what if you took some curiosity take a drop of curiosity and put it in the spot where that other burden was, and what if you do that and what happens? Does anything bad happen? No. Great. So let's just do that. Let's just take a tiny bit of it and play around. And what if we do that? And then when I end a session, I will invite my clients to invite all of their parts back in and say, okay, did you see what happened here? Did you notice that we took a little drop out and nothing bad happened?

Marty: I

Alison: what if we just let that be? And you keep an eye on it? And if at any time you need to drop, you need to grab that part back. That little drop. That's okay.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Alison: but what if you don't?

Marty: That's very helpful. That's very helpful. I mean, it reminds me that. One of my biggest breakthroughs in, in my recovery from growing up in a dysfunctional family was to ask at one point, what if they were just doing the best they could? You know what, you know, maybe it wasn't like in order

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: hurt you. What if that was, that was there, there was, you know, a reason that they had that made sense to. They did my parents. And, and that opened up a world that opened up a whole new world. Like, wow. You know, and now, uh, know, I have nothing but, um, respect and, and, um, and and love for them, that, that, what if question was right there now that,

Alison: Yeah. Or what if your parts don't have to change?

Marty: mm-hmm.

Alison: if they can just be, what if they just get to tell us their story, whatever that is, and then that's it. What if you're not broken?

Marty: great. Yeah. So these are, they sound like they, they, they center around like questioning the, the, you know, the, the sort of like the, that is the part of the story that is, um, unquestioned.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: That would be to start like, you know, well, I, just gotta be

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: just

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: what

Alison: Right, right. What if she's not, if there's another way of looking at it that we haven't discovered yet? I mean, when you ask the what if questions, you're, you're getting outside of the, we get in spirals, right? Our parts get in this habit. We have a habit of acting and interacting. So what if there's a third possibility that we don't even see yet?

Marty: right.

Alison: we don't have to show up in the same way? There's a different way to show up, and if they say, I can't imagine it, well, that's fine. That's what, if that's okay too.

Marty: Right, right. Yeah. Well that, I love that kind of what if, because it, you know, and instead of the, the background assumption being, well, something's gotta change here. Something can't be right about that. What if this is just the

Alison: Right, Right,

Marty: What would, how would, how would that

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Marty: you? Right. What would you do

Alison: Right.

Marty: That's

Alison: Yeah.

Bill: And for the wounded parts and their protectors in the IFS model, what if what happened wasn't about me at all? It happened to me. But what if it wasn't my fault? It happened to me, but what if it didn't define me? And on that note, I, I'd kind of like to read something that you shared. Alison, if you don't mind, we've got about 10 minutes left here before we begin to, we need to wrap up this session, but, uh, and, and so I wanna make sure that you get to what you wanted to talk about if you haven't already here. So when, when you, when I asked you to be a guest, I sent you a form and I asked this question, what is, tell us about your experience, personal story or message you'd like to share. And this is just one little excerpt out of what you, how you answered that. And then I'd like to just hear how you comment about hearing your own words reflected back to you in this way. I, I'm just gonna read it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna paraphrase it. When I was in my late forties, you said, when I realized that every decade of my life had at least one major explosion, sometimes more than one, which left me standing, not lying down, I. Standing in the rubble. That was my once my life, my through line has been my dogged determination to not lose sight of what I thought of as God, which has changed a lot over time. And to not let my experience not let my experiences define me. IFS has taught me that it was my burdened parts that were doing the rebuilding. Included in that process were those moments when I was at my lowest and the divine stepped in and offered me hope.

Alison: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah,

Bill: How's that for you to hear your own words read to you? I.

Alison: it's amazing actually. I'd forgotten I wrote that, but it's, it's a hundred percent the truth. Like my through line has always been God, um. Yeah. 'cause my forties was, uh, my husband and I were in a car accident. We had just moved here and my nephew had died by suicide. We had been here two weeks and, um, that totally blew up my world. And then we were in a car accident where I ended up having five surgeries on my right hip, hip replacement revisions. And it's a surgery on my arm, my right arm. And that's actually what brought me into Brenda and. That was the, that was probably the last blow up that I had, and when I found, when IFS found me and I reconnected with my understanding of the divine, which is my own internal self energy. Those parts of me that were working hard to rebuild, got a chance to tell their, their story they rebuilt my life for me, how they helped me out, how connected they still remained, even though I didn't know it to their own idea of the divine 'cause. Our self, our parts are also have the divine in them. And so those parts of me. Got me through. And then when I found, or I came back home to myself is when they were able to finally just let go and I could heal from not only the trauma of the surgeries, 'cause I had a lot of groin pain, which was highly triggering for sexual abuse, my sexual abuse parts, and my body. It was extremely painful work that I did with Brenda, extremely painful that it brought me home. I. And I used the, my imagination got to really play a huge role in that, which is where I start as a child. So I feel like I've come full circle where I started with that innate knowing of the divine and, and that creative draw. I've always been pulled that as my North star. Even when I was pissed off at God still, was my, that was my through line.

Marty: Interesting.

Alison: Uh huh And who knew it was within me, but it's,

Marty: How would you characterize the relationship between the True You as in the name of our PO Podcast? Divine and Self, as in Internal Family

Alison: mm-hmm. I think self and internal family system and the true self are one and the same. I think self-energy is that divine spark. We are, I think we are manifestations of divine. We are co-creators of our own reality. And I think you learn that with IFS because our parts also are not separate from self or source. They have that in them as well. And so it's, it's, that's why I like the internal work reflects on the outside work. 'cause when my internal world is solid. When my parts aren't burdened so much and my reconnection with my divine self is the one leading my life, is when the creativity in the imagination come full circle and are, and are powerful agents of change. And so if I show up in the world that way, I'm bringing that outside. so when we have people that are running the world that are so burdened, which we see today, their internal pain is reflected outside in their decisions and how they, how they're running their life,

Marty: Sure.

Alison: so powerful and one of the reasons I love it so much, and one Bill and I do a parts where practice group, one of the reasons we do it. I'm gonna speak for you, bill, 'cause I know this is true for you. I think is that we know the power of if FS to change the outside world when it changes the inside world. So what I do, my growth has a major impact on what I bring out in the world because my energy is vastly different than it was prior.

Marty: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, it sounds like if, if we have listeners who are, um, searching for God or, you know, wondering about what a, a relationship to the divine would be like, IFS might be a way in. You know, to, to work with your parts since they are sourced by the

Alison: yeah, for sure, for sure. Because I, I, I'm not a part of religion at all. I, I think, God, I, I don't like the word God. I think it's loaded with trauma and injury. I. personally, I mean, if other people find that we're helpful, that's totally fine. I don't actually, don't think it matters what we call source it creator. I don't think it matters. Um, myself,

Marty: Yeah. Awesome.

Bill: few minutes before we need to wrap up. Are you taking clients and, and if so, what clients are you are working with? Who, who do you help?

Alison: have a, I have a few spots that are open that I can take. Um. I like clients that have, uh, an interest in exploring their own internal world, um, their divine identity and soul. Very interested in, in incorporating soul work into healing. Um, very much interested in helping people come home to themselves.

Bill: You are a, a certified IFS practitioner.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Bill: do not call yourself a coach. You don't see yourself as a coach. You see yourself as a practitioner. Uh, you're also not a licensed therapist.

Alison: Right.

Bill: Uh, tell, tell me about that identification as a practitioner, how do you see that as a practitioner of the IFS model? You help your clients. In what way? I guess what I'm asking is how do you help them?

Alison: Uh, the FS model. I mean, that's my primary focus. I, you know, I have a

Bill: I,

Alison: with the word coach, and you, and I've talked about this before because I haven't done any official coach training, so, you know, I, I have, I don't, doesn't, I don't feel like I'm in my integrity if I say I'm a coach and I haven't done any training in

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Alison: in that arena. But in truth, I think what I do is more coach-like. It's not therapy. I don't do therapy. I don't take, I don't take clients who need therapy. I'm not a therapist. So in that regard, I'd probably more like a life coach, spiritual coach.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alison: I just have a hard time with my own integrity saying I'm a coach and I,

Bill: I

Alison: round and round, but I

Bill: yeah.

Alison: do it.

Bill: And we don't have to go round around anymore, but I do see you more as a coach

Alison: Yes.

Bill: because what I see is distinguishing the difference between a therapist and a coach. Besides that license is that a coach is gonna help someone to achieve or accomplish or arrive somewhere that they, that they're having trouble arriving, uh, at, on the own. You're, you're trying to help people arrive at a, at a connection and an identification with their divine source. Am I right? Yeah, and I think that you do that very, very well. Would you talk just a little bit about parts work, practice, your experience with it and what people can find there, and I'll put some show note links in so that people can find us there.

Alison: Mm. God i's spent a long time on par on IFS. I love it so much. IIFS normalizes the multiplicity of our, our minds. When I was first having my memories of abuse and I, because I had suppressed so many of 'em, I felt like I had, uh, DID or dissociative identity disorder, and that was a bad thing. And, and the fact that I had all these different points of view and these different conversations going on in my head all the time, and, and it was just crazy making. When you throw in a, a sh I was gonna say a bad word, a ton of trauma and. It just, my whole system was just fractured. So when I came across, I and I had been decades with therapy talk therapy, and that made my managers really strong. And thank God for that. 'cause I had two babies and a husband and I didn't wanna hurt them. And those parts of me really, really helped me with keeping that my life together until it fell apart after my nephew died and I was in a car accident. So that piece of it for me, IFS with the parts where it normalizes that we have parts, it normalizes our trauma, it normalizes how we show up in the world based on our trauma, but it also offers a great deal of hope when you realize that the core self of who you are, that divine, that divinity that we all are. Is not broken. It doesn't experience trauma. It doesn't ha, it has no fear. It is pure love in the most profound, fierce, playful way possible. And it is that divinity, that connection that you can have with yourself that brings you back home.

Bill: Would you just say a few words about how parts work practice ties into that and how people find their way there? Our group.

Alison: Oh parts for, okay. Yes. Parts for Practice is a free group that Bill and I co-lead. We are in the process of writing a guidebook, which is gonna be published this year. And um,

Bill: She says with confidence.

Alison: I'm confident we're gonna do this. Um, parts for is helpful because we're, we start, we're gonna start over in our, in our book in next month, I think April, right?

Bill: Yep.

Alison: over

Bill: correct.

Alison: it takes, it takes, a person from the bare bones of if f just introducing the idea of what parts are and we go through. Each exercise brings you further and further along in your understanding of what a part is, what your managers are, your firefighters, your. Um, managers, your exiles self-energy, we take you all the way through that process of understanding. So by the time you get to the end of the guidebook, you have a good understanding of your parts, what they do, why they do it, self-energy, why selfer energy is key. That it brings the healing energy, the love, everything that your parts need. So by the time you're done, you are not done with life. I still have parts that get activated. I still have exiles, but you have a, you have a tool, you have a toolbox, you have a way of living your life that changes everything. Do we lose Marty?

Bill: We lost Marty. I don't know if he had to leave or if he just lost his connection, but this is a good time for us to say

Alison: Yeah.

Bill: goodbye. I, I wanna say thank you so much for being, uh, a guest on the True You Podcast. You are the first guest, the first of many. Yeah. You are our first guest for this True You podcast.

Alison: I forgot.

Bill: I think it,

Alison: good.

Bill: I think it, went absolutely wonderfully. And I, and I, uh, I really appreciate you coming on and, and talking about so vulnerably and transparently about your experiences and, and how IFS has helped you and, and how you're helping other people because of your own healing. So I wanna acknowledge you for that. Thank you for being here. Okay. And I'll see you very soon. Thank you.

Alison: Yep. All right. Thanks Bill.

Bill: Bye.

Alison: Bye.