Marty: Welcome everyone to the Leadership Coaching Podcast with Bill Tierney and Martin Kettelhut. Um, we're in season two. Our listeners are growing and we're having a lot of fun doing this. Welcome. a topic that, um, Is eternal. It keeps coming up. I think for all of us as human beings is, um, this topic, you know, you want to do with your life what you want to do with your life. You don't want to have to do stuff with your spend your whole life doing stuff you don't want to do. And yet there, there are times when it seems like, well, like, but I do have to do this, even though I don't want to and various shades of that. So we want to return to that. I'll let you start us off Bill.

Bill: I've been thinking about, uh, thanks, Marty, and glad to be here today and recording another episode of Leadership Coaching Podcast with you. Um, today I was asking, I suggested that we both come up with a couple of things that are on our plates today. We might want to, we might want to refer to this in the future as today's episode is what's on our plate. And, uh, I named a couple of things that were on my plate, you named a couple of things that were on your plate, and we decided mutually that since two of the things that were on your plate kind of coincided, at least paralleled,

Marty: One is an example of the other.

Bill: yeah, that maybe we would go with that. Although I love the other topic as well, and maybe we will go there next, next week. Uh, which is solving the wrong problem, which comes out of your book. Uh, it would have been a flip of the coin. So today we're going to go with what I'm calling, uh, I don't want to, but I have to.

Marty: Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, and in, I think in our previous episode on this topic, we came down pretty heavily on the side of don't do anything you don't want to do. So it's, it's good that we kind of balance that out this time. Well, there are some things you have to do and how do you decide what's what and, and to, and how much of that do you let in the door? Now, where this came up for me this week, I was coaching, uh, a younger client. You, I mean, he has a family and is, you know, employed for a while now, but he's maybe half my age he's really struggling with these, you know, this, The things that he has to do for his company, um, or for his marriage and family, uh, both of those categories are troublesome to him right now. And he just wants to watch the game or, you know, go with his buddies fishing and all this other stuff. It's just like, Oh my God, when can I have my life? That's, that's where this came up in my world this week.

Bill: Did you say that he is, is he newly married or new in a new job?

Marty: Neither.

Bill: Neither, neither.

Marty: I mean, compared to, to me, it's, it's new, but

Bill: Everything's new compared to you if he's half your age, right? Uh, the reason I'm asking that question is because it's just something that you said just now reminded me of. Uh, being 24 years old and my wife gave birth to our daughter.

Marty: oh, wow.

Bill: And, um, I remember being so joyful and shocked when she was born and I was in the delivery room with her at the rush of emotions that came up. Just all this love and came completely unbidden and, and there was nothing that could stop me from just weeping in, in the delivery room. Uh, which I think happened to be a, oh, I guess she was, I was going to say a storage room, but we were in a storage room because the hospital was so full until they moved us into the delivery room right at the last minute. Anyhow, uh, what a, what an experience. And so clearly I, I was really moved and loved what was happening that I was a daddy for the first time. And then Lori, my first wife and I were having our first child together and it was a momentous occasion. And I think every cell in my body knew it before my brain did. How important and powerful that was. Now, fast forward about a month, and we're at home. And, uh, we've got a dog whose name is Buddy. And Lori, and Sarah, my daughter, and Buddy are all off in the bedroom. And Lori's nursing Sarah. And the dog's in there with them. And I'm out by myself feeling lonely, feeling like jealous of my little girl, jealous of the attention that my wife is giving my little girl. And so there's these feelings, very confusing feelings. I love being, I love that I'm a daddy. I love that we have a family. Um, I just adore my daughter. And my wife and I'm feeling jealous. So I think, I think I'm mentioning that now because that's what got triggered by something that you shared about your, your client. But at the same time, I think it might point to part of why we can feel both. I don't want to, but I have to. And will I do it or won't I do it? There's, there's a lot, there's a confluence of a lot of different elements, a lot of principles, a lot of values, a lot of, uh, concerns, parts of us that are in conflict about what do we feel about this and what do we do about this?

Marty: Yeah. Well, and I think that the approach that started with him, and so maybe this is a good way to start getting into this or not, is to look at what is that have to serving is it's, you know, is it serving a larger purpose that's important enough that you would override your feeling so to speak about it like, you know, like, brushing your teeth is a simple example, um, you know, like, It's not my favorite thing to do in the day. I, I, it's, you know, it's bothersome. Some people love to do it. I do not enjoy brushing my teeth, but I ha I have to and I do because it serves the larger purpose of getting along with people. and keeping my, my health as well. So I do it and, and I don't think about it because it's, it's a have to, that falls squarely under the umbrella of things that I want.

Bill: Mm hmm. Mm

Marty: That's kind of another good example that I gave him in our coaching session was. Unfortunately, he's not a musician, but for you, you'll understand like, you know, nobody enjoys practicing scales and arpeggios and getting, you know, the, getting the fingering just right. But, you know, if you don't slow down and do those things first, then you won't be able to be free at, and when you play, you won't be as adept. Uh, as you'd like to be on the instrument. So it's a have to, but it serves the larger purpose of being able to play. Well,

Bill: I agree with all of that. Uh, when I was first learning to play the guitar, I, I remember how painstaking it was and, and even I haven't played much at all in the last 10 years or so, but I used to write songs and I would get, um, I would write the lyrics to songs and the music for songs and play them on my guitar. And sometimes if I had other musicians that were playing with me, I would show them what I wanted for a bass line or a piano line that would, that would support it. And, um, and I can remember practicing, uh, what I would hear as a kind of a lead that I might play on the guitar the refrain or, uh, during, just during the lead. And what I heard in my head Was so difficult to actually pull off and do on the guitar that just as you just said It forced me to slow way down and notice what I was doing and be very conscious about what I was doing And but once I did that enough times like enough days in a row consistently for enough time Eventually, I pick up that guitar and my fingers started knowing what to do

Marty: right,

Bill: And I didn't have to consciously think about it anymore.

Marty: right, right.

Bill: And then I would just move on speed and intonation and clarity and timing and all of it. And soon I got pretty good, pretty good. it comes to, so for me, that wasn't a have to, although you could say, I want to, I want this to sound beautiful. I want it to sound like it sounds in my head before I pick up the guitar to try to duplicate what I heard in my head. So if I'm, if I'm gonna make it sound anywhere near that beautiful, I'm going to have to practice. I could say that.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: But here's the reality of it. I didn't have to practice it. It was a condition. If I wanted A, I had, I had to do B.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Another topic, topic that we considered today was solving the wrong problem, and we'll talk about that hopefully in another episode, but That's another example too. What if I assume wrong? What if I assume that if, in order for A to happen, I have to do B, and the truth is I don't actually have to do it, and I could still get A. That's, that's one thing to consider. But the other one is to, to change, maybe to change the language a little bit, because really what we're saying here is if I want this outcome, then doing this thing would produce that outcome. So do I want, do I choose to do it or not? And I might have parts of me that say, I don't want to. I don't want to do it. It's not fun. It'll take time. It's, it's arduous. It's, it's upsetting to me. I don't want to do it. But if I tell myself I have to do it, not really the truth. Most of the time. I don't think. What do you think of that?

Marty: That's probably, that could very well be true. You know, they're like a good example for me and my business. I do not enjoy, I don't want to do invoicing. Well, I could, I could have somebody else do that. I don't have to do that.

Bill: That's right. That's right. An invoice needs to go out. If you expect to get paid.

Marty: But I, I'm going to focus if you don't mind on, on things that are entailed by what we do want.

Bill: Yeah. Okay. So let's find a solid example to, to do that with and maybe,

Marty: Yeah, like, what's the example that we had? Um,

Bill: well, you mentioned a client. I mentioned learning to play a song that I heard in my head.

Marty: I think what we want to what I'm what I'm having the back of my head in my agenda is that I think that a great life. isn't one where these two things live on opposite ends of the world, but where they've been integrated. So yes, I have to eat my peas, but that'll make me healthy. And I want to be healthy. So, you know, it, if it, if it doesn't live inside of anything you want, then probably you don't need to do it. Yeah.

Bill: You certainly don't have to. So the basic, the basic things are, let's just start with survival. If, if I want to survive, then I need to have to want to, it's going to be necessary that I fill in the blank, breathe, that I eat. Um, but beyond survival, there are other things that we're interested in.

Marty: Right.

Bill: If I want to, if I want to succeed, just about anything at a, at a relationship, at a job or a career. Uh, if I

Marty: Right. Those, those are great because, you know, a lot of people have, that's the, that's the thing. It's like, uh, I want, you know, I want to be a financial advisor, but I, you know, people are so hard to deal with that sort of thing, or, you know, I, I want to be a car mechanic. I love working with cars, but you know, all that oil and dirt and stuff.

Bill: I want to get more clients, but I don't want to ask for referrals.

Marty: That's, that's, that's a good example. Yes.

Bill: When we were talking about that as a place to go today, um, recognizing how important it is to get. Referrals and how valuable referred clients become to us and how great they are to work with.

Marty: it's a good example because, you know, I, there's hands down hardly comparable, hardly a comparison between, you know, the, the kind of people, the kind of relationships that show up from random marketing versus a referral. Like it's almost always, almost always, you know, a better fit.

Bill: That's right.

Marty: And so I want those kind of, um, new clients rather than those. But that means that I have to get on the phone and get in touch with past clients and ask them, you know, who they know that might want to work with me. And that's, I would rather not have to do that. You know, I love it when they, when they refer me business without my even asking.

Bill: Mm

Marty: That's I used to actually keep a statistic. I don't do that anymore. But, you know, I used to keep a, you know, a monthly report to my coach. I would say, okay, this many unsolicited referrals came in. It was a nice statistic to keep track of. But ultimately, you know, I do have half do because I choose those kind of clients. Again, it fits under the umbrella of what I want, ultimately. You know, I have to brush my teeth and get on the phone and talk to these people.

Bill: hmm. I want to challenge you. Do you? Do you have to get on the phone and talk to these people, your current and past clients, in order to get new referrals? Is that true?

Marty: Well, it doesn't have to be by phone.

Bill: Well, okay. I have to, I have to have conversations with, with

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: current and former clients to get referrals.

Marty: I mean, perhaps there could be a system that goes into effect early, much earlier on some sort of reminder system to them that, you know, to think about who to refer to their coach, you know, um, so that I never have to have this other campaign.

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: Regain their attention that I suppose there's something to be said for that,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: but I'm a, I'm a strong believer that a real time one on one conversation is most effective.

Bill: Absolutely. I can't, I couldn't agree more. But do you have to do it if you want to get referrals?

Marty: I'm gonna probably step in the mud here, but yes,

Bill: Is it more accurate to say the most efficient way that you have found to get good referrals is by having a conversation with previous and current clients.

Marty: and effective, efficient and effective.

Bill: But is it is it more true to say that the most efficient way that you found to do that is to do is to have those conversations? Or is it more accurate to say I have to have those conversations if I want to get referrals?

Marty: I guess the, the, the former I, so your point, your point is, look, you don't absolutely have to, but it is the more efficient and effective way.

Bill: It is. And if you have those conversations, there's a predictable outcome here that you're probably going to get some referrals from doing that. If you do have enough of those conversations, you're probably going to get those referrals. So we could just say, yeah, if I want good referrals, then I have to have those conversations. But that, what I'm saying is that that's not accurate.

Marty: Go on.

Bill: I'm saying that if I want to get good referrals, I have found for me so far, the most efficient way to do that is to have these conversations.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: And, and I also noticed that in the past. Despite how well that works, I'm reluctant to initiate those conversations from that place of reluctance. It feels more true to say, I have to from that place of the, the, the potential benefit and outcome of doing it. It's more, it's less attached to a, like a disempowering perspective.

Marty: So where I feel like you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but where I was saying, look, it's better to not separate these things. Out from, unless they don't really belong under the umbrella of things you ultimately want, if it's a real have to, and it doesn't even serve the things you want, then forget about it.

Bill: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, as you may remember, I was in the grocery business for 21 years. Yeah. And that included running my own store for a while. Uh, it included being a department manager in several different departments. And it included just being the low man on the totem pole and doing whatever needed to be done, including the bathrooms. So, over that 21 years, I did, I did a lot and I learned a lot about retail grocery. And, and one of them is the idea of a loss leader. So I'm just going to throw this out. A loss leader, for example, milk. It cost us 2 a gallon for the milk, let's say. And we're selling it for 1. 99. That's a loss. We're losing a penny every time we sell one. Why would we do that? Because, because if we don't sell our milk, 90, 90 percent of the people that go to the store for groceries go there and they're going to buy milk. Maybe not every single trip, but they're going to buy milk. They got to know before they leave their house. That, that they can count on when they go to my store, they're not only going to find milk, they're going to find it fresh, and they're going to find it for a competitive price. If they don't know that, they're not coming to my store. I won't do any business. So I'm just setting up a scenario here. As an example, let's just say I decide, no, I think it's BS to lose a penny on milk every gallon that I sell. I want my customers to pay me a profit for everything I sell in the store. Costco's like this. Costco makes, I don't know what it is, let's say it's 10 percent on everything that they sell in their store. They don't lose anything. They don't have lost liters. They make money on everything. Now, that's the information I have. If you're a Costco employee or you know different than I do, um, I don't mean to be a know it all here. It's just information that I have. It may not be accurate. But let's just say that it's very rare in retail that there wouldn't be a loss later. Now, I open my own store and I say, I'm not going to do loss leaders, I'm going to make money on everything. Chances are, I'm not going to do as much business as if I did do loss leaders on bread and milk and the basics. So, I should, I could say, I want to have a grocery store and I want to be profitable in my grocery store, but I, but I don't want to discount my milk and have it as a loss leader, but I have to. That's, that's, that's a long ways to give an example around my point, which is no, I don't have to, I don't have to do loss leaders on milk. But if I want to get what I want, I have to find some way to get that. If I want to have a profitable, busy grocery store, I have to find some way to get there. So what is my problem with giving away milk? Why wouldn't I want to? That's, that's where we need to go, I believe. Is, is to get underneath what is it that makes me feel like I'm doing something that I have to do, even if I don't want to.

Marty: Great. Great. Yeah.

Bill: What is it about calling or reaching out to previous or current clients and asking for referrals that you don't want to do? What is it about that?

Marty: Be a bother.

Bill: I don't want to bother them. What else?

Marty: That's the main thing.

Bill: Because if you bother them, then what?

Marty: Then I, we lose the charm of our relationship.

Bill: Ah, right, right. It's going to be a turnoff. They're not going to want to talk to you at all. Right? Or is that it?

Marty: Well, no.

Bill: Okay, you still lose the charm

Marty: I called up and said, I want to talk about something else, I don't think they'd say no because you asked for a referral. I don't think so.

Bill: Yeah, yeah, but it's gonna it's gonna put a stain on the relationship a little bit isn't it or that's your fear

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah, i'm going to ask them for something that's going to make them feel awkward or uncomfortable. I'll say i'll speak for myself That's certainly my reluctance to do so to call up an old Previous or current client and say hey, I I I've got a couple of spots left on my, I mean, I've taken all kinds of courses, sales courses where they say, this is exactly what you do. You call them up and say, listen, I've got a couple of openings for, for clients. Um, who do you know that, would benefit from my services, as you have. And there are NLP, Neural Linguistic Programming experts that know just exactly the right language to use to ask those questions. It's kind of manipulative, I think. But it's ways to get around it. To make yourself do what you don't want to do. And I'm saying that maybe you don't have to make yourself do what you don't want to do.

Marty: I see. So in the case of my young client, it's more about what is, what is your hangup about talking about arranging, um, making the proper arrangements with your wife so that you can enjoy being a family man and, um, not have to do anything that you don't want to have to do.

Bill: Exactly. What do you worry might happen if you, if you do this, or don't do this?

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: of questions to get to, to get underneath it, or it could be just as simple as let's change our language here. You're viewing it, let's say to a client, you're viewing it as if this is something that you have to do. You don't have to do it. What if you don't do it? What's going to happen? What are you worried or concerned will happen if you don't do what you think you have to do and don't want to? That client's going to reveal what they're, what they, what's distasteful for them about this. I don't want to bother them. I won't know what to say. I'm scared of rejection.

Marty: Mm

Bill: I'm afraid I'll find out that I really didn't bring any value.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: These are some of mine that, that come up when I didn't even consider it. So then with good coaching, I would think that we'd be faced with then, okay, so it's, if you're not going to do that and you want that result, what do you propose? And often in my life, what I have found is that I, I do workarounds. I remember being so scared to go out and talk to real estate agents and ask them for referrals for mortgage loans that I would spend hours and hours and hours in my office being busy getting ready to get ready to get ready to get ready to have some conversations with some real estate agents and ask them for business

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: workarounds made me feel better that I was doing something. Unfortunately, what I was doing wasn't going to produce the result that I wanted. Mm. Mm.

Marty: Um, I guess I have a fear that like, well, on the one hand, I just want to say that I do see, like, I, I know that those conversations are coming for him, you know, once, once I can get him to not just be in this sort of like, want me to do stuff I don't want to do. I want to do all this, like, just like, there's no, So that's why I suggested looking at, well, what, what do you ultimately want? And what are the, there might be some have twos inside of that. And you're saying, well, he really doesn't have to do any of that, but what there is to do is to address what's his problem in a dad or being a husband, you know, showing up in those ways. That he needs to and to, and to work on those or at the job, you know, there's certain things that they want him to do at his job that, you know, he, he, he'd rather be stirring up new business rather than filling out the forms afterwards.

Bill: Right, Right, Exactly. That's a good example.

Marty: So again, and again, it's, it's not, it's not that you have to do those forms, you know, it's like, okay, what, what is it that has you not want to do them? Is there something we can address there such that it would become enjoyable to do the paperwork? Or is there some work around that would allow you not to have to do the paperwork, um, right. To work it that way, but it still remains. You know that there's there's some there's something that he does want the entailments of which he doesn't want, right?

Bill: There's an inner conflict.

Marty: Right? Because you could say, okay, you're right. I don't have to do it. I don't have, like, I don't have to do invoicing, but then I probably shouldn't be a sole proprietor of a coaching business. I sure I don't have to do those things, but. Then I should pursue a different career.

Bill: well, or, or another way you might say it is I don't like doing invoicing. I don't want to do invoicing. I just want to coach and get paid for it. So is there another way for you to get paid for your coaching if you don't send out invoicing?

Marty: Sure. Definitely. The that's the workaround scenario book, right? You find somebody else, you get an assistant.

Bill: Right. And now let's just run up against that. So I want you to, then, then you're going to go out and hire an assistant. You're going to have somebody else do it. No, I don't want to have to pay somebody else. I'm, I'm not making enough money as it is. Okay. Now we've got a double bind. You don't want to do invoices, and you don't want to pay somebody else to do it for you, you just want to do your coaching. So, you don't have to do invoicing, but you're going to be coaching for free if you don't. Or, find some other alternative.

Marty: Be coaching for free and have another job that raises money. Right? You're right. You don't absolutely, it's true, you don't have to do these things.

Bill: So, I'm suggesting let's turn the pressure down by changing the language, not as a manipulation, but to reflect more accurately reality.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: Reality is that you don't have to. Have

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: to feels like undue pressure. I have to fill out these forms. Do you? Yeah. What'll happen if you don't? They'll probably fire me. Oh, so you want this job? You want to keep the job? Yes. Are you willing to do the forms so that you can keep the job? Yeah, I guess. Okay, we're getting there. We're making some movement now. It's, it's still not a robust, I love doing forms and it never will be. But, but, you're willing to fill out the forms so you can keep this job. Why do you want the job?

Marty: hmm. Mm hmm.

Bill: Well, so I can feed my family. Really? That's it? That's it? What will this job lead to other than feeding the family? Is there a bigger vision than that? And now what feels like have to annoyance. If we have a bigger vision, well, this job will take me to the next level and to the next level and to the next level, or it'll enable me to buy that house by save enough money or whatever that would be saved for college, send my kid to a nice university, whatever that would be for them. Now, filling out forms feels like an act of love rather than a have to.

Marty: Got it. Right. Yeah. That's and so I think we come to the similar thing because I was saying, look at the larger purpose

Bill: Yes.

Marty: that transforms the doing, you know, from something onerous to to an act of love.

Bill: Right.

Marty: because I think it's I think it I guess why I'm a little sticky on this with you is because and I could be totally wrong about this, but, it, it feels to me just as a real basic level, like it's, it's worth reconciling oneself to that there are things you have to do and your, your basic stance is no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's nothing you have to do.

Bill: It is. It really is. And I'm getting, being a little sticky about it too.

Marty: Yeah. And, and so I think that's, that's. You know, I think I'm, and this could just be the way I've learned to deal with life and that it's not true, you know, it's, maybe it's a survival mechanism of mine, but I've developed this, even being alive, I would go this far, I would go this far is to say that, you know, human life is suffering. It's a struggle. And so, you know, yeah. You have to, you have to get with that. You have to be with that. You know, it's going to be painful. It's not, it's, this is not going to all be the way you want it. It's not going to be what you wanted. There are going to be surprises. There are going to be horrible things that you have to deal with in life. And so I'm trying to. You know, be ready and sturdy enough to, to bear though. And like I said, that's, I can tell as I'm saying it, it almost sounds like, you know, something out of the old Testament, but there it is.

Bill: it sounds like it's out of the, isn't it out of the Dow? Buddhism.

Marty: Well, the Taoism, Buddhism, that's Taoism. Uh,

Bill: and, and what are those, there's three truths that Buddha taught it right from the beginning.

Marty: five, aren't there five noble truths? I'm not sure. I don't know,

Bill: I'm way out of my wheelhouse here, but I just remember. Reading a couple books about Buddhism and, and maybe it is the, the first noble truth is life is suffering. Isn't that right? Yeah. So that's what you're, that's what I hear you saying. And I, even that I, I take, I take, uh, objection. I object to that. I, I don't agree. I don't agree that life is suffering. I think that I have suffered in my life. But I don't agree that life is suffering. I've also had joy in my life, and when I am experiencing joy, I'm not suffering. And I'm still

Marty: I'm not saying that there's, there's no, there's nothing to life but suffering. That's not what I said.

Bill: No, no, I heard you say that, that life can be really hard.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: And, and I heard you say something like that your, your your attitude about that is I want to be prepared. I want to be sturdy. I want to bolster myself so that when it happens, I'm ready.

Marty: Yeah. I mean, I think there is, there is a, a part of what I have in the back of my mind are all of this work that's being done now. About the millennial generation and their def, the, the, the thesis is, I'm not claiming this, that they're much more oriented around, like, I'm not doing anything I want to do. Then we, who I I'm on the cusp of, The boomer, I'm at the very end of the boomer generation. So I have a very different outlook on all this stuff. I'm actually Gen X, but then there's no preparation that, well, what do you do when you're faced with stuff? Entailments of life, you doing your taxes, getting a job, you know, helping old ladies across the street, like all these things that, they're the struggling part of life, you know, and, and, So that's, that's where I'm coming from. And a lot of times I'm just going to be really honest about it. A lot of times the way I deal with these, what I call have to's, entailments of what I want is another way to say it is that I turn off the mind about it. You know, I sing a tune while I'm washing the dishes because I'm not into washing the dishes. And so I, I ride through it on the tune. You know, when I do my invoicing, I'm usually listening to music or, you know, looking out at Long's Peak or, you know, having a nice cup of coffee, something to make it endurable.

Bill: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Marty: Um, because if. Because there are things that they're entailed by my life,

Bill: Yes. Yeah.

Marty: but I don't, I don't especially join them. So they, all of that, not enjoyment stuff is going on up here. So I turned that off and just do it.

Bill: I see. Yeah. That's great. I make some adjustments to all that that's going up there. When I notice that I'm suffering and I'm doing something that I find necessary, if I want to get a particular outcome, I just remind myself, I want to do this.

Marty: mm

Bill: I also don't want to do it.

Marty: mm hmm,

Bill: So thank God for IFS because it makes me feel sane. There's a part of me that doesn't want, absolutely doesn't want to do anything I don't want to do.

Marty: yeah,

Bill: However, there are parts of me that will step in and say, but I'm willing

Marty: mm hmm,

Bill: and because I'm willing and because I see that I'm doing it, apparently I want to do it.

Marty: yeah,

Bill: what's the evidence that I want to do something? I'm doing it.

Marty: mm hmm, mm hmm,

Bill: And that makes just a huge difference for me when I recognize that I am still in choice, even if it's something distasteful, even if it's

Marty: this is where our different ways come back together again, because it's, it's, it's when I see like, oh, old, you know, like, no, I don't want to do the dishes, but I don't want to live in a house of dirty dishes or have to buy new ones all the time. So, ultimately, this fits under the umbrella of something that I want. to have the dishes clean.

Bill: And another thing that I'm noticing. I mean, that is another really great example is how it feels inside to push up against. I have to do this

Marty: Mm.

Bill: it because I have to is completely disempowering to me.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Whereas if, and this isn't just a, a, um, a way to manipulate my own mind, it's, it's, it's a way to find truth that's empowering.

Marty: Uh huh.

Bill: There are parts of me that don't want to be doing this right now. But there are also parts that recognize that if I don't do these things, then I'm not going to get the outcome that I want. So, despite the fact that I have parts that don't want to do it, I am willing to do it, so I choose to do it, and here I am doing it, because I do want that outcome.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: It's a choice, and I'm empowered.

Marty: Mm hmm. Great. Yeah. Interesting.

Bill: both of them spiral, by the way, and you've noticed this too, I'm sure everybody has if they haven't stopped to think about it, consider that if I am building momentum in the direction of disempowerment, it continues in that direction. If I'm building momentum in the direction of empowerment, that continues to build momentum.

Marty: Mm hmm. Mm

Bill: It feels like much of my, much of the time I am the captain of my own momentum. I'm in charge of which direction I'm moving. I don't think that I ever sit still. I don't think that that, that energy just sits still for very long.

Marty: So, like with this client of mine, um, you know, I told him with, with regard to the, the, the tension in the marriage, I said, be the marriage, right? That's what you want is the marriage. It's not about the, these, these other things that you feel that you have to do. Be the marriage. And, you know, you'll come up with new ways to handle

Bill: Be the marriage.

Marty: Right. As opposed to being the husband against the wife about what he has to do. The marriage.

Bill: You know what you just now said reminds me of another leadership book. I'm reading your book right now. I'm also listening to another leadership book called Extreme Ownership. Have you heard of it?

Marty: I've heard of it.

Bill: It's by a couple of Navy SEALs. And so there's a lot of, You know a lot of testosterone in this book and a lot of rah rah. However, the principles are just Solid

Marty: Mm

Bill: that when I hear you say be the marriage that is extreme ownership. I am taking responsibility for this marriage

Marty: Right.

Bill: If I don't like the way the marriage is going I am responsible If I'm not getting the outcome that I want in my life, in my career, in, in, in making money, or in, uh, my relationship with my kids, in any of my relationships, in any area of my life, I am responsible. If I can start there, that seems to be, to me, to be miles and miles and miles away from I have to.

Marty: Yeah, I would agree. I don't know if it would for this for everybody, honestly, but but what I would what I'm meant to be speaking to is that internal motivational piece that that you is your reason for taking the I have had to approach to these questions because you don't want to be battling yourself against have tos inside. And so you If you're being the marriage, the struggle is already resolved. And then we go from there. Right? I am married to I'm committed to the marriage. Now, let's look at, you know, solving all the problems from there.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. love it. That's great. Well, this you and I have kind of bumped up against each other quite a bit in this in this conversation. And what I'm noticing is that, um, that many times you and I are paralleling as we're going down the racetrack. Around the around the track, uh, you'll take the lead. I'll take the lead. You'll take the lead I'll take the lead not as not a competing but just handing it back and forth to each other today It feels like we're doing more bumper cars, but that's the way comfort conversations go Sometimes right a lot of starts and stops a lot of and I could tell I could feel you doing the same thing I was doing i'm trying to find a way to both support and compliment what you're saying while at the same time noticing that I I have a different take and I'm really struggling to match, match, to match you really. What's this been like for you in this conversation?

Marty: Oh, no, I think you described it. Well, I also, you know, it's been. Motivating and reassuring for me as we have had these bumper car moments that we, we were, we both found different solutions to the same problem. It sounds to me and I think it's also another thing to consider that, you know, sometimes these sorts of deep, fundamental things are very much our, our ways of solving them are, they grow out of our background too, you know.

Bill: true. That's right. True. It's our survival mechanisms,

Marty: Because of the influence that have been in my life and you came to those because of the influences in your life and, and we both agree that you don't want to do anything you don't want to do, and that there are some things that aren't the first thing that we would jump at, but they are giving us the life we want. So we, you know, I think there's a lot more in common than different here, actually.

Bill: and it's okay that we don't have things, things in common. One of the things I love about this conversation is even though there, there's been some discomfort for me in not being able to just be parallel with you or unified and supporting in the way that I want to be, uh, and, and the way we usually are, that we have been able to be respectful. And, and I'd love to see this expand that, that the recognition that some conversations are going to be uncomfortable, they're not all going to flow perfectly well, but they're, but it's entirely possible to still have those conversations, like the one that you and I just had with respect to each other. I appreciate that about you. Appreciate that. We're able to do that together.

Marty: Me too.

Bill: Yeah. All right. Well, Marty, let's call this one. We're at just over 45 minutes, I think, since we hit record and. Um, I want to say I actually did enjoy the conversation. I felt challenged by it. I, and I've, I also felt like I learned some things from you. So thanks for the conversation

Marty: would, I would, I would echo everything you just said.

Bill: until next time we get to, we get to have another episode recording tomorrow with Nora. We're going to record the third episode on project design and I have volunteered to be the guinea pig. So looking forward to that. I'll see you tomorrow.

Marty: Okay.