Bill: Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Coaching Podcast. My name is Bill Tierney, and I'm a results coach and a certified IFS practitioner. And my co host, Dr. Martin Kettelhut, also known as Marty, and some people call him Doc, also a leadership coach. And we are joined again by Nora Edelstein, who is a fellow coach, who's part of our Friday Morning Mastermind group. She was here in the last episode talking about project design. And in this episode, We're actually going to demonstrate what it looks like to design a project. I've offered myself as the client and Marty and Nora are going to coach me through a project design. Good morning to the both of you.

Norah: Good morning. Thanks for having me back.

Bill: And I now hand over controls to the two of you.

Marty: So Nora, when you're, when you're coaching someone through a

Norah: Yeah, well, let's dive in. So I, when I, when we left off talking about project design, I was speaking about how I think of project design as a structure for a way of being in the world, since all of us are are trained to be being based coaches based on the premise that who we're being in life is far more impactful than things that we do or have as a starting point. It seems, um, it turns out that this very structured way of creating a project can be a way for you to step into a new way of being in the world. So, it's, and it's a very, even though, and we're aiming for something that has a lot of structure, but the process of creating it can be very organic.

Marty: Can I, sorry to interrupt, but I just want to underscore the last

Norah: CastingWords

Marty: by the structure of the project design. think this is a place where. I have seen myself fail a project design when not in this new way of being that's being structured. And so it's just constantly battling yourself. Right? And so

Norah: I'm going to

Marty: there are different ways to meet that battle. You, you can either

Norah: to

Marty: me. I should give it up. Or you could, you know, Surrender to that way of being that the structure is supposed to hold in place and, and ride the wave. And there are probably other possibilities to, um, like restructuring the game to, to, to make more sense to you or to feel better, uh, to ease you into the new way of being something like that, but I just want to underscore the importance that just because you design a project does not mean that Guarantee success. There's this way of being that's being held into existence. is really what drives the causality of producing what you want.

Norah: yes, I totally agree with all that. And, um, I just want to go back to something you said about, like, about kind of the discomfort of it and that that may be being a signpost to not being that the project is somehow not designed correctly. And I would just. Say, actually, the project is therefore designed correctly. Like, if you're both inspired, which is 1 of the ingredients to the project design and the way I design it. So, if you're pulled forward towards towards the possibility of something, you're inspired and you're confronted. That's how, you know, you have a good project. So, and the reason it's not just for the sake of being confronted, it's that. We all have, um, we all have. Places where we get stopped in life. I know I do. It's like, I can predict, you know, looking ahead on a normal project where I'm going to get confronted and want to give up. It's like a, it's like a formula. And so when we're stepping into something inspiring, that is out of our comfort zone, we are going to be confronted. And in that confrontation, the way this is designed, we have the opportunity to create a whole new relationship. With that part of ourselves that is resisting that doesn't want to that scared. And so that's how you build a muscle is by coming up against those edges. So, yeah,

Marty: right. Good, good. I think that's helpful. I think there are some places in the last episode we were just like, Hey, get yourself confronted. but there's got to be both. There's got to be the, it's going to be worth it to go through this. And I'm going to have to get over

Norah: exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and

Bill: taking a few notes as I'm listening to this conversation between the two of you. And I'm, let me just tell you what my notes are. This is kind of what I'm extracting from what I'm hearing. As I'm about to be a part of this process, I'll be the focus of it. Uh, if you're inspired by the possibility of the project and confronted by, uh, the, that. That possibility, I guess, challenge of it. If I'm confronted by the implementation, the challenge of it, then it's a good project. And, uh, it's good because being confronted by it gives me an opportunity to deal with my edges, to expand my edges, to strengthen that muscle and, and the discomfort that I will experience exercising and strengthening that muscle and expanding my will be worth it.

Norah: Yeah, but you get to say what is worth it, right? And we'll go into that part. That's what I call the objective possibility. It's like, um, you're the beauty of it is it's your design. So you're putting in all the parameters you're putting in. What the actual possibility is that is so worth it that you're willing to be uncomfortable. And that's where the coach comes in is like getting to listening for what that, what that is in you. Like, what is the thing that would make it. All worthwhile being

Bill: Okay.

Norah: so, um, Marty, do you mind if I jump in to how I go about?

Marty: please.

Norah: So we may only get to the 1st, few pieces. I'm not sure we'll get to the whole, like, um. The whole spelling out of every milestone, um, but. If we can get to the 1st, 3 pieces, that's the, that's the juice of the project. And so. And these pieces are kind of, and they work off each other. So we may start out talking about your objective and and then go to your goals and then have and then talk about vision and that will inform your objective again. So it's going to be kind of a back and forth. So, and some of these words are just so mundane for what they are, you know, in the way I was trained, we start with the objective, which is. Um, it's really the emotional, the heart of the project, um, something about the word doesn't match like that, the impact of it. So, um, and then somebody, so that's sometimes where you start, like, I want to be living, you know, at peace with the world and myself, it's going to sound something very lofty, very emotional. And then we look at, well, how would you know that you had arrived, had fulfilled on that objective? And that's where you can get to the SMART goals, you know, it's like, um, Yeah, and we'll get into that. So, like, how do you make that measurable? How do you make that very lofty, emotional thing measurable? And sometimes people come and they have, they want to start with their SMART goals. It's like, I know what I want to create. I want to write this book. I want to do a TED talk, you know, and then you go back to the objective. So you're always working back and forth. You don't necessarily have to, um, start with 1 or the other. I know, Bill, you've done some thinking about some ideas you have about what you want to use as an example for this call. So why don't we just hear from you about what your thoughts are on what you want to work at.

Norah: So we were talking about the objective as being kind of the emotional heart of the project. I use that interchangeably with the possibility. If you're familiar with this concept of your why, so it's like, why would you bother being uncomfortable? Why would you even take this on? So, um, I think we'll just start where I usually start is with the objective. And then we, and then we go to the measurements of success. So you're taking kind of the emotional heart of it, and then you're making it measurable. And so we're going to play around and work between those. Two or three parts, the third part I haven't mentioned. And I think it's best if we just dive in. Yeah. So Bill, I know you've been thinking about things that you'd like to put structure around. So why don't you tell us what some of your ideas are.

Bill: There's three options here. One is to, I've got two men's groups that are called the authentic man.

Norah: Mm hmm.

Bill: And, um, both of them have openings in the groups and I'm not getting a lot of interest. In filling those up, so I'd like to fill up both of those men's groups. that's that's one option. Another one is that I'm taking on a new venture, which is to provide consultation for I. F. S. trained coaches and practitioners, and I want to do an, uh, consultation group, and I want to fill that group up. And then the third one is that I've been in the process of writing a book now this year, uh, that is taking a lot more time and, and really morphing and changing into a different idea than I started with. So that, that third project would be, uh, getting that book completed and sent off to the publisher,

Norah: Okay. And so, and when you think about these three projects, And you imagine them complete and just as you want them to be, which one has the most pull for you or the most inspiration, the most juice?

Bill: the book.

Norah: The book. Okay. Okay. Is it okay if we, should we turn our attention to the book?

Bill: I think that would be great.

Norah: Okay. So why don't we start by you, are you, is it okay if we start with you just saying what the book is about and what, just talking a little bit about this idea and, and, and,

Bill: Yeah,

Norah: that we'll extract what the possibility of it is.

Bill: sure. I could get real carried away on this. So I'll try to limit myself to just maybe a minute or two describing it to you. How's that?

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: the name for the book I believe will be, uh, uh, restoration, excuse me, authentic self restoration. And what it's about is essentially it's a memoir that describes my journey of, uh, that led me into recovery. I spent some time defining what I mean by recovery. That being restoration of authentic self, recovering my authentic self. And then the, the, the cost of not doing that and the benefits of doing it, that as well as the process that I went through to. Arrive at restoration to the degree that I have of my authentic self and the purpose of the book is to help others both by inspiring them, helping them to identify with their own in their own journey and how they have lost their authentic self and showing them some ways that I found that maybe they can implement as well to regain access to all the innate resources that we lose when we lose a sense of who we are.

Norah: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Can't wait to read it. Um, so, it sounds like, so, I'm just gonna kind of step outside the conversation. So, in this case, Bill is very clear on the, what the thing is. Like, it's a book. It has form. That's already measurable. The content seems really clear to you already. So those are good. That's another measurable part of it. When you imagine the book is complete and that it's out in the world and people are benefiting from it, what, what does that provide or make available for you? Out of having produced that.

Bill: Boy, the question generates multitudes of responses internally. Some of them are disempowering and some of them are empowering. The disempowering thoughts immediately, even as you were forming your question were, will the book actually ever get read by anybody? Is, is it going to get out into the world, even if it's out in the world, will people know it? Will I be able to get it into the people's hands and will they like it and benefit from it in the way that I intended? So that's a, that's a whole set of internal responses that showed up immediately and may point to some challenge. My edge, as we were talking about how I'm, how I might be confronted in this situation. In this

Marty: one. I don't want to interrupt the flow, but one way to work with that would be to make it being read a criterion that's confronting but inspiring.

Bill: Well, exactly. That's two levels of confrontation right there for me. There's two challenges for the one is actually finishing the book and I have a high level of confidence that I can and will do that. But the second one, getting it read. I do not have that high level of confidence with

Marty: it.

Bill: so. Your question was what, what would you restate it again.

Norah: Yeah. So when you imagine that the book is out in the world being read, um, in the way exactly that you want it to be, and providing the inspiration, the help that you imagine, what does that make available for you? So

Bill: I do a pro bono group and I've been doing it for the last three and a half years that helps people to practice using the IFS model internal family systems model to help them to restore their authentic self and the way IFS talks about it is self leadership. to develop self leadership. And what I say in the Parts Work Practice group is true here as well. And that is that I believe that the more people that know how to use IFS and that recognize that they're operating automatically from burden parts and and set a, their own personal objective and goal of developing self leadership, running, running their lives from their true authentic selves, fully resourced, that will change the world. One person at a time. We can change the world as we step into our authentic, powerful selves. And, and let go of the, of the trauma, the, the pain, the unresolved, the incomplete past.

Norah: what I pulled from that is that, um, Is something like being your authentic, living your authentic true self and inspiring others to do the same? Something like that? We can, you know,

Bill: Yes.

Norah: is there?

Bill: so that, so that the changes that, that so many of us have kind of written off as even possible, that the world we might live in a world of peace at peace may actually occur.

Norah: Yeah. Okay. So, being an inspiring people to live their authentic self towards a world at peace, something like that. To create a world at peace. I mean, I want, I wouldn't normally doctor the word so much, but just for the sake of the call, is there something, is there some way of stating it that would be most powerful for you? In like one line. I always like to have the objective as like one powerful statement.

Bill: I might have to play with it a little bit to get to the one powerful statement, but the, what I'm getting now, as you're asking the questions and we're playing around with these words is that I believe. Based on my own personal experience of being in my and as my authentic self that my default state is peace My default my default internal space is peace if I can Make that make that my default if I if showing up as my true authentic self In the world, which can, could be described as being at peace. If I can externalize that model that and let make that contagious, then we, then we may experience, I may experience along with the people that I'm connected with an external default state of peace.

Norah: Got it.

Marty: the project right there. There it is.

Norah: That's the, yeah. That's the possibility. That's the juice of it. That's why, that's.

Marty: And it's beautiful.

Norah: Yeah. And how is it for you, Bill, when you state that?

Bill: Joyful, delightful,

Norah: Joyful. Delightful.

Marty: And

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: emotional, I feel like crying for some reason,

Norah: Yeah. That's how you know. Yeah. That's a lot of people, when they get to the heart of what it is they're up to, get emotional. I had one more thing to say about that. Oh. So, it was, I want, what I wanted to go back to what you said initially, is that what you first got, like the, you said there was disempowering stuff and then there wasn't what you, I'm going to assert just on my experience of what you first got, the disempowering stuff or was the reaction to how close you got to the possibility. So it's almost like a signpost that you're onto something.

Bill: yeah.

Norah: So instead of like, Oh, that's the wrong project. Cause I'm disempowered in this area. It's like, Oh man, I must be really onto something. Cause my survival mechanism like pushed its way to the front of the line. And I had to state that first because it was so uncomfortable.

Marty: what's the difference between that and something showing up just so the audience can regulate themselves between it's showing up. Oh my God, that sounds way confronting and it really is a bad idea.

Norah: If you're not inspired, I would say if it doesn't like also, if you don't have that emotion about the possibility

Marty: good. Thank you.

Bill: May I toss in, many of our listeners are listening because they know I'm an IFS practitioner. And so some of the language that you're using, which is beautiful, is not common to the people that are familiar with IFS. So let me just throw in that when you say survival mechanism, if you, for the listener, if you haven't already figured this out, that just means you're burdened parts.

Norah: Yeah, I say that knowingly, not having ever

Bill: Well, no, you know

Norah: trained, but I've been around it thanks to you for, you know, a few years now. Yeah, absolutely. That's okay. So very clear. You're very, you got to the emotion of the objective. That's the juice of the project. That's the inspiration. That's the part that moves you about it. That's what makes it worthwhile to go through whatever discomfort you're going to go through.

Marty: it's

Norah: And

Marty: right. It's it's what's gonna cause the result.

Norah: yeah. And so the next question, like now we're going to look at what we call SMART goals, um, and the SMART goals for your listeners are specific, measurable, achievable results in time, okay? So we're going to put a, we're going to put a date on it, and, but before we even go there, so standing in the fulfillment of your objective, which is, I'm going to say, I'm going to say my purpose is a world at peace. Okay. So it sounds like your objective is very close to my purpose, so I'm gonna, um, just use that term because it flows so naturally instead of trying to go back and remember your exact

Bill: Yeah. Great.

Norah: And, um, I should have asked you permission to do that, but it sounds like you're on board. Yeah. So how would you know that you would fulfilled on that objective?

Bill: It's huge. It's just such a huge outcome that would involve, I would hope, the majority of the 8 billion or so people that are populating the planet right now.

Marty: Mhm.

Bill: And it seems, let me just report now too, that it also seems grandiose.

Norah: Yeah, it will. Yeah. It's big. That's why you're working on it.

Bill: Well, if it's okay that it's big and grandiose, then I would know that the, because the world, we wouldn't be having all these wars.

Norah: And when you think of it, so we want to make it, um, we want to make it related to the book also. So I love that. And that's, that is very, that's huge. And it's okay to have things that are so huge, but when you think of it related to the production of this book, what are the concrete things that you can, I mean, that is concrete and I'm not, I'm not saying that's not it, but also you want to bring it to your project, which is creating this book and including having it read by X number of people.

Bill: Would it be useful, it seems like it would be useful to me to have that objective defined in that way then. Because what, the work we did earlier was the big expansive grandiose vision. Now what you're pointing to is my role in that. Which is to finish writing the book and get it read by enough people that the war stops.

Norah: Yes. Okay. I, okay. So here's what I would say to that. Um, you're, the objective is always huge, like confrontingly huge, right? And so, and sometimes when you get to an objective, there are many projects implied by it, right? So you may have a world peace project. Now we're going to, and you may have a, like, well, I'm going to need my wellbeing really intact to be able to lead this charge, right? So you may have a wellbeing project that comes out of it that's very personal. You may have a lecture series that comes out of it. So I wouldn't suggest paring back the objective. I would just. Um, what I would recommend is because you want to keep that objective inspiring in this case, I would say, okay, how is the book of peace of this incredible objective

Bill: So the book,

Norah: that way? Yeah,

Bill: in other words, the book is, finishing the book is a project. Getting it read by others is a separate project.

Norah: no, I wouldn't say that. Okay. So here's what I want to say. Sorry. It's probably not good

Bill: why isn't it, why isn't that two, that feels like two completely different projects.

Norah: So here's what I'm so here's, um, something that's really critical to put in. Um, Is that one thing that is the hardest thing for human beings when they're facing this huge objective and this, um, project that's out of their comfort zone is to remember that this whole thing is a declaration, your entire project design is made up. We are not operating in the world of what's reasonable. What's expected. You're operating in the world of, um, this is how I want life to be. This is what I want to produce because if I produce that and if X number of people read it, I would be living my, uh, living up to my objective. And so it's not something you were out of the realm of predictability. Like I know you, Bill, I know you can write a book, right? Cause I've seen you write 10 or something. And, but what is uncomfortable for you and out of your comfort zone is making a declaration about how many people are going to read your book. without knowing how you're going to do that.

Bill: Yeah.

Norah: And that's part, that's like another aspect of project design where you're actually being willing to say, I want this result and I have no idea how I'm going to accomplish that, but I know who I'd have to be to accomplish that is so much more expansive than my life now. And that inspires me. Yeah.

Marty: Mm hmm. Would

Bill: Okay.

Marty: be, I'm totally open to you correct me on this, but would it be possible to think of it in the sense like, the war on wars, we might not win, but we could win this battle on the war on for peace. Right? And it would have been a good life to have fought that battle and won it, even if the grandios weren't fully realized by doing so. Is that a good distinction? Mm hmm. Mm

Norah: And I also recommend you include the number of war. You could say today we have 10 wars by the end of my project, which may not, you know, when, when a million people have read my book, we have half the number of wars in the world and I'm tying it to this project.

Marty: But, we, but to separate it out and just say, okay, now we're just going to play a game about numbers. Takes all of the inspiration out of it, right? If, if we just say, okay, separate game for that, that thing about peace on earth, well, we're just gonna try and get as many people to read this as possible, then well, then it doesn't have that same connection to the world that you're creating.

Norah: Actually, that's the, that's the magic of the project design is that it's

Marty: That's my point.

Norah: It's like, I'm going to make this huge declaration and then I'm going to declare what that looks like. And I'm going to make it specific and put numbers on it, which probably will be the confronting part of it. But that's what the objective is for is like, why am I doing this? Like, what, what was I thinking when I said a million people are going to read my book and I have only had 10 it's like, Oh, I'm like, I'm creating a world at peace. Okay, what's next? Like, if I spend the rest of my life trying to figure this out,

Marty: Right.

Norah: that would be a life

Marty: I was trying to, exactly. And that's, so I was trying to speak to your question, Bill. What, is that a second project? No, no, no, that, that loses all of the umph.

Bill: Finishing the book and getting it to the publisher would be a milestone along the way.

Marty: Exactly.

Norah: I just, that just occurred to me. It's a milestone along the way.

Bill: This is a, an aside, but I think it's a really important aside. I understand your use of the, I mean, we're talking about wars and, and you broke it down to a battle. And, and I, I get that. I get what you're saying and I agree. That's a, that's a great way to think about how to make this feel even possible

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: Uh, but but as an aside, I just want to say that the war on anything doesn't work.

Marty: Good. I agree.

Norah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing in the languaging of a project design, is to, like, think about, a lot of people want to put in what's not true. You know, it's like, the accomplishment of this project is that I'm no longer insecure about my ability to write a book. And it's like And then the question becomes, well, if you weren't insecure anymore, let's say that's handled, what would you be? So we, you know, that's a, that's another layer of the project just to put in. Cause we're talking about it as like, you want to get all the, what's not happening out of the language of your declarations.

Bill: So going back to how would I know? I think that's the question that gave birth to these other discussions that we've, that we're

Marty: Which are very important, by the way. Everybody, everybody goes through this when they design a project. So it's not off track. Go ahead.

Bill: Well worth it. Yeah. But my coach training's coming in and my, the things I've learned about sinking in anchor so that I can come back to where we started, is coming in handy here, so if I remember accurately, it, it, it is how would I know, how would I know that I had successfully achieved my project? And one way certainly would be to major the number of wars. One way would be to, to guess that in order to, it's kinda like. If I want to achieve a particular level of income, and I'm self employed, and my income comes from clients, I need this many clients paying this much money in order for me to achieve this income goal.

Norah: Yeah,

Bill: So I could think about it that way, like what my best guess is, and it's a guess, I don't have the data on it, I don't know.

Norah: that's okay.

Bill: But, but, for example. If there are 8 billion people on the planet, and if 1 percent of the people on the planet read my book, would it be enough to eliminate one of those wars? Would it be enough to have people begin to look at the Donald Trumps of the world and say, that's not an option, you know, attacking each other is not the way to build this world at peace. Enough people know that, believe that, not believe it, know

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: then that can change the tide.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: Because as Marty knows and writes in his book, there are no bad teams. I don't know if you say this in your book or not, but there are no bad teams. There are no bad groups. There are bad leaders. There are leaders that, that lead us in the wrong direction. So maybe the measurement is that we have, we have those kinds of quality leaders in the world.

Norah: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: You're asking me, how would I know?

Norah: well, and also like it occurs to me, cause we're going to date stamp this and, you know, it is, you could say. You could have a long term vision, like within five years, 1 percent of the population is, you know, the wars have decreased, our leadership is, you know, empowering and causing peace all over the world. And you could say, and you could have that mapped out. And you could also say within a year, where will I be on this journey towards this objective,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Norah: right? Just to bring it in a little bit closer and more tangible,

Marty: hmm.

Bill: Okay. So how would you guide me?

Norah: um, what we'll just think about a year from now, how would you know that you were on this path

Bill: Oh, okay. All right. Well, the book will have been submitted to the publisher. The publisher will have, one year from now, the publisher will, and I will have negotiated what edits there are going to be. We'll agree on, let's, so let's just say it is now published. One year from today, it's published.

Norah: Okay. Awesome.

Bill: And you heard me probably talk about some of the milestones as I was finding my way

Norah: Right. But and before we go there, sorry, Marty, I'm just gonna say this one thing, what I, where I would go next, cause we're staying in the juice of the project, like the milestones are going to come after you create a vision, right? So you really want to anchor the possibility of this, your, your objective and the book is published. And so I'm just, Marty, is it okay? If I just talk about a vision and how I coach people to have a vision. So, um, so in a, in a, in vision writing within this framework, you stand on a certain date in the future, it's called the future fulfilled. And so you say it is September 26. My book has been published. And then you paint a picture written in the present tense about what life is like, what's going on. You know, you, I mean, I have people say, I wake up, it's September 26, my books, my book is on the shelf today. I'm going to run downtown and like, see how it's displayed. And you're just, it's like, you're painting a picture that is so vivid that people know your experience, exactly what you're experiencing. It's amazing. And written in the present tense as if it's all this past year has already happened. So, I don't know if you'd be willing, it's usually a written exercise, but if you'd be willing to demonstrate, um, that, you know, what you would be saying in your writing if you were creating this vision.

Bill: Yeah, this reminds me a lot of what I call my aspirational results statement.

Marty: Mm hmm. That's what it is.

Bill: The result is that I've published a book that eventually 80 million people are going to read. That's, if I'm doing my math right, that's, is that, is that 1 percent of

Marty: No, 800 million. 800 000. 800, 000 would be 1 percent of it. 8 million.

Bill: Oh, really? Oh, thanks for doing that math. 800, 000 people. Well, well, really?

Marty: Oh wait, no, sorry, I beg your pardon. You were right. 80. I beg your

Bill: 80 million. So I've written a book that eventually 80 million people are going to read. It's published. I'm at a book signing that my publisher and I have worked together to organize, and it is very well attended. I'm delighted to be there and to read samples from my book and field questions and, And, uh, talk about this, this overall objective that I hope the book can accomplish. I'm, I'm not thinking beyond that. I'm, I'm,

Norah: Yeah. Yeah, so maybe it's a little uncomfortable to say it out loud, um, I mean, I don't know if it

Bill: I don't feel like I'm holding anything back. It's

Norah: you know, you can go down to like what food is being served and who's there. It's like, oh my God, you know, and my wife just walked in and she's carrying flowers and it's literally like you're starting with a blank canvas, which is what this is. And you're painting a picture and you get to use all the colors that you love, like your favorite palette and you get to create the scene and you get to, you know, like create a whole experience through writing this vision.

Marty: And the, the check as to whether or not things are, you know, like a zipper coming together is if that vision state, or what did you call it again, the

Bill: aspirational, aspirational

Marty: aspirational results statement, if when you, that if it is imbued with your objective of peace, if so, then we're on the right track, if not, we have to work on it.

Bill: Mm-Hmm. Yeah.

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: So I can see that, This is a, a worthy project that I don't, I don't know how, how thoroughly we can do that. I mean, it. If you guys want to spend more time on it coaching me around how to expand on that statement We could do that or I can just do it myself separately

Norah: I have something to offer that I think we could do on the call that would be helpful.

Bill: Okay

Norah: So, let's just say, you know, often we have up to like 10 things we're measuring. And you can, so you could say my book is published, that's number one, and that shall remain number one, right, and we'll work with that when we do a milestone plan. But you could also have, like when I, when I said what's it like, you said I am joy, I am delighted,

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Norah: on emotions, like a, like today, overall, my level of delight. is at an eight. And by the end of this project, it's going to be at an 11

Marty: huh.

Norah: You can use on a scale of zero to 10. It's at an 11. You know, you can measure, I always say there's like hard things that you're measuring, like concrete things. And then you can also find a way to measure really the purpose of this, you know, how much, how at peace, how much am I at peace, you know, you could say, and it's just, you know, it's just something that the client knows, like. You know, it seems kind of woo woo, but it's like, you know, my level of peace is probably at a three on a scale of zero to 10. And I want to be at a 10, like consistently, you know, like this.

Bill: Yeah. Like, who am I being? I'm being at peace. I'm being delighted.

Norah: yeah, yeah, yeah. And so if we just, let's do like, so it's a year from now. And that's the other thing, depending on the length of your pro when we get to the milestone plan, we're going to chunk it down and work our work our way backwards, right. To the present. And so when you have a year long, you get to say how many chunks you want, like what the time frames are for these chunks. But let's just take just for an example for the audience. So number one is my book is published, right? If you were to, if you were to have a milestone, let's say two months before that, what would have to be in place that would have, you know, that You're going to fulfill on that objective.

Bill: I don't know that I have enough, um, information to understand the process. I'd almost have to talk to my publisher to tell, to find out what to expect. But I'm guessing, and Marty just published a book. Maybe you can tell me, Marty. Marty, what should I expect to have happened two months before publishing?

Marty: going to have had to turn the book in much sooner than that for, for the publisher to go through it. So, two months before is pretty close in terms of publishing. So, you know, I think it needs to have been proof, proofread and edited by then.

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: my final draft to the publisher by July 26, 2025,

Marty: going to have to be earlier.

Bill: earlier than that, even. And once I've turned that book into the publisher. Should I, I'm going to have my publisher, what, what, listen to this

Marty: the two months before might be something like the publisher has gotten back to me that all of the corrections have been approved and we're ready to go to press. That might be the two month.

Norah: Yeah. And you're planning and you've have three offers to do your book signing from bookstore, local bookstores or international bookstores.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Well, maybe that's what I ended up doing in between ready to go to press. And now there's nothing for me to do other than to begin to set up the marketing of it. So maybe I'll make 826, uh, uh, received three invitations. I like that for book signings.

Norah: Right. And you're here. Okay. So this is also important. And I've been dealing, talking to people about this a lot. So. A lot of people want to go to what I'm going to like the to do list. Oh, I'm going to call 10 people. We, I mean, you could have that, but you want to focus on when you're doing the reverse results plan, the reverse milestone plan, you want to talk about the outcome. So I have three invitations. We don't know how you got that. We're not worried about it. We're just like, you're just creating a picture of the results that are getting produced. And then we'll get, we'll show you, we'll get to, um, it's part of the design to do it that way.

Bill: we're not, we're not at the how yet.

Norah: We're not at the how, we're just talking about what. And,

Bill: We talked about why.

Norah: yeah, we have the why, now we're doing the what. And the what has to be inside the objective, and it has to be inside, you know, Like you have to be pulled, not have to, but it's like, um, yeah, it's all inside the objective and your vision.

Bill: Okay. So what if we did monthly milestones? Is that reasonable?

Norah: Um, for the purpose of our call. And if you, I mean, do you feel like we have the time to do monthly? I was just doing bi monthly just to, for the sake of the call, but I'll leave it up to you. It's your podcast.

Bill: Well, um, I, I say let's take at least another five minutes on milestones.

Norah: Okay.

Bill: Um,

Marty: But, but for the listener, the milestones, you know, will populate this reverse order of the steps you're going to take or the milestones that will have been met. Um, I forgot how I was going to end that sentence.

Bill: Well, you start,

Norah: That's to me all the time.

Bill: you start with the end in mind and

Marty: Right. But, but, um, that, that was the point. The point that I was going to make is That, um, there's no, it doesn't have to be monthly. It doesn't have to be bi monthly. The milestones are met when they're going to be met the way that you envision it, right? That so it, you might need weekly. Milestones to, you know, to keep the structure to keep the possibility or the objective in, in existence, or you might have by monthly, you might only need by month. That's all I was going to say,

Norah: I think there's something cha, that sounds like a, a, a, like a sneak around, what do you call it, to going forward, you know. So, so what I was going to say before is that, well first of all, yes you're right that everybody, you can come up with whatever increments you like. I find it useful to do like regular increments and that forces you to go, to kind of be creative about it. If you're basing it, what sounded like you might not have a Marty with you. That's a, that just published a book that can tell you exactly when the deadline is of when you need to get it in and when the editors there. And because that also like in real world example, that could also lead you down. Well, I'm going to go online and research the timetable for doing X, Y, and Z. And it kind of takes you out of like this declarative state. Of like, I have no idea how I'm going to do this, but here's, this is what it would look like if it worked out really well, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just going to make this up. And so there's something magical about that willingness to just declare something you don't know. And along the way you can course correct. It's like, you could say, like, I'm on, I'm, I'm a pilot. I'm flying from San Francisco to New York. I'm going to take this route. And then along the way, a storm happens and you have to detour. So. It also forces you to be kind of creative with the whole process and to deal with those times when what you declared a year ago is like nowhere near. And so what do you do and who do you have to be about that? Does that make sense?

Marty: you know, I agree with this, what you're saying, and you could create that. There's a big, You know, cushion of time around certain milestones because you want to, uh, dilate there. You want to spend more time like on getting reader feedback, beta reader feedback before you turn it in. So you have, you purposely schedule three months in there rather than just a weekly, you know, so that the creativity piece, the declarative piece is what's crucial here.

Norah: And, and sometimes you, people create a project and it's like, you know what? This is like, what was I thinking? This is crazy. And you've got to adjust. It's your flight plan. You can do whatever you want with it. And the role of the coach is observing you in your process, knowing that your survival mechanism is going to be triggered and coaching you through that is asking you, like, are you. Is this about face, um, you know, or this change in your project design from your fear, your survival mechanism, your parts, or is it from your essence, like your higher

Marty: The objective.

Norah: Yeah. And a great, I'm just going to share an example of this is I had a client who was getting close to a year milestone of having like met a certain objective and she was so far off. And so she just decided, you know what? I'm just going to put it a year from now. Like literally she was a month away and she was like, I'm just going to do it a year from now. And I was like, really that to me, like what I heard as a coach is survival

Marty: Hmm.

Norah: And I was like, what if you played for your results, no matter what, and a month from now, like, who would you have to be to play for the same result that you declared a year ago? And she was like, she got so lit up and excited. From being so resigned at how impossible, you know, like she was so deflated when she just pushed it out a

Marty: I love that.

Norah: and she got so excited and she didn't meet her milestone, but man, she was an

Marty: That's cool.

Norah: and she was, yeah, it was so, it was definitely an aha moment.

Marty: Excellent.

Bill: It sounds like part of what you're saying is that even the milestones should be confronting.

Norah: Oh yeah. The whole thing was. Confronting. It's a stress. Well, let's say, I mean, you don't want to confront your, you know, I'm not going to create a project where I'm going to the moon on a spaceship next week, right? Because my relationship to my project would be, You know, even if it's inspiring, it's absolutely impossible for me to get to the moon. Yeah, so you can play with the timeline, you know. But, um, you don't want to have it so big that you're going to get shut down. Like, you know, you know, that it's just like impossible. It's like, I'm not, you're no longer inspired, right? Where is it, and you don't want to have it so predictable that it's just business as usual. Like my client putting, just pushing it out a year, it's like there's no breakthrough there. There's no new way of being there, that's just the old way of being. So you want to find the sweet spot, it's like, yeah, I get a little, like my stomach's a little upset thinking about that milestone, but I don't want to like run to the bathroom or something. Can't believe I just said that, but you know what I mean? It's like not so scary that I'm just going to be frozen. Because you want to be kind to your survival mechanism and your part. You want to, you don't want to have them running the show, but you don't want to have them, um, but you yeah, yeah. You want to work, and that's where the relation, because of the coaching is, like, how can you have a conversation with this part of you that's terrified, you know? And sometimes the, that part of you might say, you know what? Your timeline is just freaking me out. Could you kind of space it out a little bit more? Or it might say, you know what? I just got excited. Like if you promise me, you'll take care of this and I don't have to worry about it. Go ahead. I give you, I give you permission to go on this crazy

Bill: Yeah, exactly. So let me share with you something that's happening as I'm listening. It actually began to happen five minutes ago. I realized that today is September 26, 2024. That's exactly six months since my birthday. Six months from today, I will be 70 years old, and I'd like that milestone to be submitting the first draft to the publisher on my 70th birthday, or by then.

Norah: Got it. Beautiful. Yeah.

Marty: Cool.

Bill: That feels good. That's

Marty: Cool. Yeah, exactly. That's creative.

Norah: And so then do you want your project, like this, this, the structure to be around that milestone, or do you want that to be a milestone on a longer project?

Bill: I want that to be a milestone on a longer project. Although, now that you ask the question and I consider my answer, I realize it doesn't feel like I have a lot of control once I've turned it over to the publisher. I mean, of course, there's going to be things that I'm going to need to respond to quickly and efficiently in order to get the book published. By one year from today, but submitting it to the publisher by six months from now challenge is feels far more challenging than having the book publishing published in a year.

Norah: Like, I, so knowing you, Bill, I know this book will get published because you're that kind of person. Um, if someone were to say to me, Oh, I don't want to declare that because I, I don't have control over it. I would hear like some survival mechanisms, some business as usual. The important part of this is that you, your book is published.

Bill: That's right.

Norah: So I would encourage you if I were coaching you to put that at whatever date you want. I mean, not five years from now, but, and like, then deal with the lack of control and would still be willing to declare something you have no control over and you'll have to arrange yourself. You know, you'll make the X, your, your publisher might make an exception that they've never made for anyone else because you enrolled them in this idea. And it's like, okay. So you want to keep putting in, confronting milestones, as a structure for growth and as a structure for living a, an inspiring big life, if that's what you want to do. You, nobody has to have a project design. It's only if that's what you're up to in life.

Bill: Okay. Well, I feel really great about submitting the first draft to the publisher by, by my 70th birthday.

Marty: No,

Bill: And does it matter where I'm at today in the, in the, process?

Norah: in what? I'm sorry.

Bill: Does it matter where in the process of, of writing the book I am today?

Norah: Well, what you'll see, so the completion of this process, and we didn't get into it, is that you'll take. Whatever increment milestone you want, whether it's monthly, bimonthly, or, you know, varied, and you'll back your way into the present,

Bill: Yes.

Norah: right? So, you may have a milestone, let's say your 26th,

Bill: Okay,

Norah: So what do you imagine, if we're doing just like a sketch of this process, what do you imagine a milestone would be a month from now towards this goal of having your book to the publisher by your 70th?

Bill: um, uh, an outline that breaks down the, um, chunks of the book, chunks down the book.

Norah: Okay, perfect. So that is now your nearest milestone in this long process, right? Or, you know, I don't want to say it's long. It may be short for you, but that's what you've kind of created your roadmap, right? So now you don't have to worry. Everything's all mapped out. You don't have to worry about three milestones ahead. You just have to worry about your nearest milestone and not worry, but focus on. And so what actions, so now we're going to go forward.

Bill: Now we're going

Norah: to your nearest milestone.

Bill: to, so we're going to get into the how, but we're not going to go all the way in here out. We're just going to get

Norah: Just to your nearest milestone.

Bill: Okay.

Norah: And people fall into the trap of like, Oh, I'll put action plans for forward, you know, milestones three months from now. Don't get into that. It's one milestone at a time. That's the beauty of this. So, if you, all you, so all you need to do is come up with an outline, and the chapters are, you know, chunk it down by, in a month from now. How does that, does that seem, I don't know. doable. I mean, it could even seem too easy, right? And then you can move the dates around.

Marty: Or what's expected by those dates, right? Yeah.

Bill: It's well within the realm of possibility. It doesn't feel that challenging. The biggest challenge, uh, that I'll face between now and October 26th and getting this chunk down to an outline We'll be having the time that I really want to put into it to have it be a usable chunk to down outline, not just something I throw against the wall and then, and then hope it comes together.

Norah: Yeah. So how, so that's an action is making time, right? So what will you take on to make sure you meet this milestone? Anything you can think of to meet this milestone.

Bill: Yeah, this will be a continuation of what I have been doing. That's been working well is to look at my calendar over the next month and schedule and block time enough time. to do enough writing and enough planning to have that chunked down outline completed.

Norah: And do you know what those numbers are enough time enough, you know, is there a page number goal, a word count goal, uh, or I don't know. I'm just making up terms

Bill: Well, my, my really rough estimate of how much of the book I've got written is about 70%. The

Marty: Oh, wow.

Bill: challenge, the challenge is getting it organized so that it flows and recognizing what's missing and that's what the chunked down outline will help me to determine.

Norah: All right. Okay.

Bill: um, what, what's been happening is I've been getting bogged down in, in the writing And the quality of the writing and the feel of the, for the reader and all that, and it's been fun. It's just been gorgeous. I've just loved it. It's so much fun to do, unless it's not. And then when I get bogged down, I'll just move to another part of the book and write about that and then come back and now it's fun again. So, um, this is a fun project for me. Have you heard me say fun yet? And, uh, I think between now and October 26 to get that Chuck down outline, I will, I will need to begin to gather all of my assets, get them out in front of me, find a logical flow and, and then, yeah, that's what it's going to take. So hours, if I, if I had uninterrupted three solid days, I could get this done. And over the next. But I don't have that. So, over the next month, three solid days, I'm, I'm needing 24 hours. So that would be 72 hours, right? 72 hours I could get this done. Over the next month, I need to, what is that? Is that five, four weeks? Yeah, 19 hours. 19 hours a week? Now it feels impossible.

Norah: Okay. That's why we do, that's why we put numbers on it. So you can see it's like, oh, that my survival mechanism just got too activated. What do I, you know, let me adjust this so that I'm stretched, but I'm not shut down.

Bill: Well, I'm not shut down. I'm already stretched. I'm not shut down. I, I, the next action for me to do is pull out my calendar and see if I can find 19 hours a week.

Norah: Okay.

Bill: And then I think I actually need to design a step by step what needs to happen between now and having that outline. What exactly do I need to do? Do I need to print everything out? going to do a search. I'm going to actually I know that that works for me. I've created a lot of publications before in the past, and I know it works for me to actually. It's one thing to have it on the computer, but for some reason, having paper in front of me that I can sort out and rearrange works

Marty: Cut up and paste. I know exactly what you mean.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to do a search of all assets. I'm going to do, I'm going to print out all of the assets. I'll sort them. And then from that, I will create my outline.

Norah: Awesome. See? Yeah. How does that feel, Bill?

Bill: Great. Awesome. Yeah. It was very vague and floaty and like, I've got a, um, uh, a writing coach that's helping me with this. He's got very limited time to help, uh, but his help is just so, so great. And when I have his help, it shifts my perspective and broadens it. And that's what's happening here now too.

Norah: Great. Yeah.

Bill: Okay.

Norah: And the only other thing I want to add, well, there's other pieces there, like make sure you reward yourself for each milestone. You know, you want to give, and the, and, and the accomplishment of the milestone is not the reward. Like, you want to come up with an advance. Just some things you could do for yourself. Time off. A cappuccino, whatever, you know, small, medium, large rewards. I'm gonna, um, and then the other aspect is, um, what are all your skills that help you accomplish this? Who are all, what are all your resources? You know, your coach, your colleague, your, your groups, your, you know, just, and the reason why we create those in advance while you're in this space of inspiration is because you will get stopped and confronted. And then you can just go to your resource list and it's like, Oh, you know what? I didn't call Kate from, you know, I don't know. And let me just, let me just call her and see what happens. And sometimes that's enough to just shift you out of your resignation.

Bill: Reward myself. What skills? Go

Marty: There might also be other things that support, like practices that support your being in the shape you need to be in to accomplish this in the time, you know, things like eating and sleeping well, you know, being being complete with your wife, et cetera, right? Those are the things that they're, they're right on the edge of making this work, but you want to include them in your design,

Bill: Mm hmm. Very good. All right.

Norah: Um, and that, I said, that was the last thing that wasn't even what I wanted to say. The other thing is you want to thread your objective through all of this. And, and also the other words I heard were fun and delight. You know, so you could have a measure it around fun and delight when you're in the, you know, You're standing and looking at all the pages and it doesn't seem to flow, you know, it's a way to check in with yourself It's like oh, well part of it's this is about who I'm being like, what do I need? To experience the fun and delight of this process, even though it doesn't seem obvious that it would be fun and delightful, right? Maybe you want to eat ice cream while you're doing it You know, it's like because I know and I know how important that is You For You Bill.

Bill: Eating ice cream.

Norah: no, having fun and

Bill: Oh

Norah: things you love.

Bill: yeah. Yeah.

Norah: Yeah, and, wait, I had another thought. Um, oh, I can't remember. I'm like Marty. I lost that one.

Bill: You had me at eating ice cream while I do that.

Norah: Right, because it's not about, you know, it's really about being. Like, this is what we're talking about, a structure for being. So when you get into the, oh, I'm going to do, do, do, the way I always do life. That's when you have the opportunity to remember your objective, your vision. Oh, I'm creating a world at peace. Like, who am I being right now? It's like, Oh, I'm out. I'm a world at war right now with my papers. Right. What do I need? What do I need? What did my parts

Marty: there was a chapter in my book that got left out at the very, at the last minute, um, because it didn't fit my objective. I mean, it was a written chapter. I'd worked on it. It may, it had sense to it, but, but ultimately the, the tone and the objective of that chapter wasn't in harmony with the rest of the book. And so I'll, you know, I recognized, huh, my way of being in this chapter is not harmonizing and I left it out. I'll use it some other time, you know, but it, it ultimately didn't fit the book.

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: So I'm starting to bump up against the time limit here. What's what's what remains here? What else would you like to say or what other coaching do you have for me so that we can begin to wrap up?

Norah: I'm pretty complete. If I could remember that one thing I was going to say, that would make it.

Marty: Well, the only other thing for me would be, um, accountability, I'm, I know that I, if you just gave me the, you know, or help me create the design and then left me on my own, it wouldn't be as nearly as effective as if I was checking in with somebody or I was on a team at like accountability is a huge factor in your success. So I would. Put that in.

Bill: Well, you can expect me on Friday mornings in the mastermind group to be reporting in on my progress here. That's that's an accountability. I also meet with a coach every Monday morning for, we are peers, we support each other, we have conversations. It's not strictly a coaching conversation. However, he's a coach and I'll ask him for support as well. Um,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: yeah, and I'll, and I'll tell my wife what I'm up to and ask, ask her to ask me from time to

Marty: You could give them the project design and, you know, they can read it and say, Oh, so this means you should be here now. Are you like that?

Bill: Yes. Perfect. Okay.

Norah: I remembered what I wanted to

Bill: Yay.

Norah: It's so that this is a game. It's like, you're playing a game with the universe in a way to, and what you're practicing is how much, what you, what you desire, what inspires you when you put that out into the world, um, how, you know, where are your blocks you're learning about yourself. What gets in the way of you leading this inspired life and to have it be a game. Remember that it's a game. You created it. That's the beauty of you created it

Bill: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Norah: you can play with it.

Bill: Yeah. I've defined how to win. Yeah. Very good. And every game, when I play games, I like to have a scoreboard. I've got a scoreboard right here for the game of my coaching business. And so I'm inspired now to also create a scoreboard for this project of getting my book published. That'll have a timeline on it. Beautiful. Well, this has been amazing. Um, I, I, I'm so glad I sacrificed myself for the good of the all by, by being the client in this conversation because, because of all the listeners and of YouTube between, I can't imagine anybody got more benefit out of this than I did. This was wonderful. Fantastic.

Marty: you. Thank you for doing that.

Bill: Absolutely.

Norah: Thank you. Thank you both for having this conversation with me

Bill: Thanks for joining me.

Marty: and for those listening, all of the information about how to get in touch with any of us is in the show notes. So we'd love to hear from you.

Bill: Let's just touch on, Marty, your book is, uh, Leadership. Um, would you say, say it for me, please? There's a, you've got a copy, Leadership as Relation, which I, I recommend. I'm reading the book now. I've gotten some real jewels out of it. And, um, Nora, what are you up to these days?

Norah: I am coaching. That's really about it. I'm not writing a book. I'm not doing a screenplay.

Bill: Who are you coaching?

Norah: coaching. I'm mostly working in organizations. And, um, working with the leadership, the staff, the man team managers, and I also work with individuals. Um, I work with individual business owners and I work with just people out in the world who I have identified a gap between where they are and where they wanna be. Um, there's a lot of, um, activity around careers. And so I'm finding a lot of people who are struggling to find meaningful careers and helping them discover that.

Bill: And helping them design projects to discover them.

Norah: Absolutely.

Bill: Beautiful. Well, thanks for demonstrating your high level of skill. Both of you are on project design and Marty, I think that one other piece of accountability here will be that over the next few episodes, maybe the next several episodes, I might touch in now and then on how, how I'm doing on this

Marty: Damn right you will.

Bill: Thanks everybody.

Norah: All right. Thank you guys.