Bill: Hey, Marty. How are you doing today? I'm great. Thanks, Bill. Uh, welcome to another episode of Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching with Dr. Martin Kettlehut and who's my co host and Bill Tierney. That's me. Uh, and I'm a results coach and a certified IFS practitioner. As usual, we've been having some conversations before we hit record, and I entered into this conversation saying, how you doing, which is not an unusual thing to do, because once we've been talking for 5 or 10 minutes, it's time to check in.

Bill: And now, how you doing?

Bill: Not a bad idea to stay connected with people, because I don't know about you, but I'll be in a conversation with someone, and then maybe 5 or 10 minutes into it, I've either lost the thread or I've lost interest. And something along the lines of what are we doing? How we doing? How you doing? How am I doing is a really great reset.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: It gives an opportunity to reframe. Reframe. Well, that's what we were talking about before we hit record. And I know that, you know, a little bit about it and you began to tell me a little bit about your experience with reframing and I'll just mention. It's not that I've never heard the word before.

Bill: I, of course I have, but I've never used it in my coaching and I've never used it for my own personal advantage. So I want to understand it more. And like you said, before I hit record, let's just have a conversation where we're doing an inquiry and exploration. We're not authorities here. We have some questions.

Bill: I see the power, the potential. Maybe we start with just what do you, what do you know about it? What are your reframing?

Marty: Let me ask you a question in that regard first. Do you Distinguish reframing from context, because I know that a lot of people who did the AC training accomplishment coaching accomplishment coaching.

Marty: They talk about the importance of context. And for me, reframing is how you set a new context, but I don't know. I want to make sure that's how you would use the word.

Bill: Maybe to answer your question, um, I'll tell you what, what I'm learning and who I'm learning it from.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: And how it's being used. L. I. C. H.

Bill: T. M. A. N. Lickman is how I'm pronouncing his last name. Stuart Lickman. He's, uh, a man in his early eighties from what I understand, he's still alive and he's still teaching. He's still writing books and the book I'm reading right now, he wrote and published in 2022 and it's called make your life a 10 and, uh, I'm in conversation with my first coach, Carlos Jones.

Bill: Who also attended accomplishment coaching training and he was my first coach that I hired in 2011 when I decided I wanted to become a coach and was he was talking about Stuart Lichtman back then. And then when I began to tell Carlos about what I was learning about internal family systems, he said, well, this sounds an awful lot like Stuart Lichtman.

Bill: And, um, but, but I found his stuff very hard, very hard to digest. To understand and to process. All right. So now I've made a commitment of sorts to try to learn his methodology and his approach and his process. And I'm reading the book. Make your life a 10. One of the, one of the tools that he teaches in the book is how to frame what is so, so that you can reframe what you wish.

Bill: Right So one of the things he has he has the reader do and i've done this is identify your seven greatest successes in life Uh huh, and then identify your seven greatest failures And I gotta tell you those describing those seven failures took me into a deep dark place

Marty: Oh god. Yeah,

Bill: I was I can just tell by look on your face as you're imagining doing this Yeah, it gets worse So once i've written a description of what was what were those Most disappointing and discouraging, uh, regretful situations that I found myself in my life and the seven greatest ones, uh, um, you know, describing a paragraph or so the next thing to do.

Bill: One of the next things to do is identify five other examples of feeling that exact same way in my life. For a different reason, you mean? Right. So, distinguish, in other words, frame what were the body, uh, sensations and experiences. What were the physical, emotional sensations that I experienced in that failure?

Bill: Uh huh. Feel the failure. Okay. What's another example? Then, then the instruction is go to your unconscious and think of another, ask it for another example of that feeling that preceded that failure. And now another one that preceded that and another one that preceded that and go all the way back. You go five deep and find the earliest memory of feeling that way.

Bill: And these examples that I found got quite a bit departed in in the context, you might say, or no, maybe the content is the word to use here. They got very much removed from the content that describes the first, the original failure. But what they did have all in common was how it felt. Physically, emotionally, mentally, to have this experience.

Bill: Okay. So then, then, the next step is to take all five of those framed experiences that are like the failure, and then reframe them. My understanding of what he means by reframing, this is what I did, was I take my current 69 year old self and all the resources and all the wisdom that I have and everything that I know to do today, and I carry those qualities and resources back into that experience and I redo the experience so that it turns out in such a way that I feel like it's a perfect 10 for me.

Bill: The most painful experiences of my life now turn into a perfect 10 where I feel great about it.

Marty: But like, just to make sure I understand. So you're imagining how it could have gone differently and actually writing it down and describing that. Yeah. Yeah, I see. Okay. So the reframe is the is that you're going back into the same experience with your 69 year old maturity.

Marty: Yes. Yes. Okay. That's that's not the general use of the word

Bill: reframe.

Marty: I get it

Bill: though. That's how I'm using it now. I'm seeing that's how I'm using it because that's what I'm learning right now.

Marty: Sure. Sure.

Bill: But I can't help but see that there's a practical application to the internal family systems model, because when we, when we're connecting with parts that are still stuck in the past, if one of our goals with those parts is that once we connect with them and learn from them, about them and build trust with them by showing interest in them, almost like little people that are running around inside of us.

Bill: Once they begin to trust us, then they care about what we can tell them and what resources we might be able to offer them so that they can start changing what they're doing. For example, let's say I've got a people pleaser part. Not that I do, Marty, but let's just say that I have a people pleaser part.

Bill: And, and it's in me having me doing everything I can to please the people in my life. But it's causing some problems because I end up being resentful because I'm so busy pleasing everybody else and nobody's bothering pleasing me. So I might get curious about this part of me that's a people pleaser and say, what are you, what are you trying to do for me?

Bill: And surprisingly, the part will answer the question. And the answer might come back as like, I'm trying to get people to like you. Oh, okay. How do you go about doing that? Well, duh. What I do is I make them happy. I do everything I can to make them happy. I'm a people pleaser. I'm proud of what I do. Okay. And what are you afraid would happen if you didn't do that?

Bill: Oh gosh, if I didn't make people happy, if I didn't please people, they wouldn't like you and they'd reject you and you'd be all alone. That's what's at stake for this part. So if I can stay in communication with and build a relationship with this part and ask further questions like, well, how long you been doing your job?

Bill: I might learn that this job, this part's been doing its job since I was four or five, six years old. What happened that had you start doing the job in the first place? And then the part will show me a memory. Well, this is what happened. And you. And, and in that moment I realized I needed to step up and help you to please people, otherwise they aren't gonna like you.

Marty: Mm-Hmm. .

Bill: Wow. You've been devoted all these years. You've been really helping me out. Thanks. I really appreciate what you've tr tried to do for me. Are you open to hearing some notes?

Marty: That sounded like a reframe too. You are reframing for the part, like I'm saying. Mm-Hmm. .

Bill: That's what I'm saying. I'm learning that the practical application is you're now that I've earned the trust of the part.

Bill: Yeah. Ask, are you open to a reframe? Are you open to an update? Yeah, I'm 69 years old. That situation that happened when I was four or five or six years old, no longer exists. That's not part of my life anymore. I've got resources that you didn't have back then. And interestingly, now at four years old, you're trying to help me in my 69 year old life.

Bill: But in fact, what I can do as a 69 year old is come back and help you out of the dilemma you've been stuck in all these years. And that's a reframe.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Right. Right. Okay. So that's

Marty: thinking about it.

Bill: I

Marty: mean, I think you did a little bit of that with me. Um, when you were, um, working with me recently, um, you asked, well, what would be a different way to look at this?

Marty: Now that now that you're back, you know, I have perspective on the past and that was that was very powerful. Actually. Yeah, it, it, it really.

Marty: Digs into our creativity, like, like, really creating a reality and another reality. And, um, which shows us, you know, that these beliefs that we've been dealing from, they weren't permanent. They weren't meant to be permanent anyway.

Bill: Right? Yeah, they were, um, stop gaps. They were band aids, maybe even tourniquets in some cases.

Bill: It seems like we have a built in imperative to understand so as to survive. And when we don't have all the information or when the information that's being presented is not accurate, whether it's because it's purposely deceitful or being hidden, or it's just not available to know, we human beings make things up and then we test what we make up to see if it might be valid or true.

Bill: And just because we've made something up and now can find proof that it's true, it doesn't make it true.

Marty: No, no, but I, and I've often thought that my life is a little bit like those Russian dolls, like that little one inside. I, I understand it very differently as the 5th biggest one, you know, like. Then I did when I was that little one.

Marty: You know, I got all these layers now, and those are reframes. Each one of them is a reframe on what happened when I was five. mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm, .

Bill: Well, is it a reframe or is it, is it framing in a new, in a new, um, situation? Like the, the same framing in the, in a new situation, if the belief remains the same, let's

Marty: just say it can be, it could be either actually, you know, it's a, it's a reframe.

Marty: If, if I, if I say, wow, I used to think I was, uh, a loser at the time. Like when I was in, when I first got to music school, For example, I was like, Oh, my God, they're all so much better than me. And now I look back on that same me and I go, Oh, well, that's because you were comparing yourself to professional performers and that's not the direction your life was going.

Bill: Yeah. Yes.

Marty: You, you were there as a scholar in the midst of all of that and you helped them learn the history of the music that they're playing, et cetera. Like. That was all perfectly, but at the time, I, the frame around it was, you're a loser. You don't, you're

Bill: not nearly as good as anybody around you. I really love your metaphor, and I've heard it used in IFS before, but I've never had it explained the way I'm now understanding it, given what you're saying.

Bill: Let me tell you what I'm hearing and getting. Maybe we can build on this a little bit, and maybe this is exactly what you were presenting in the first place. I'm just, I'm just getting it.

Marty: So,

Bill: so the little, the little smallest version of this, of this Russian nesting doll that we finally find as the egg in the middle of all these that are that's hidden away, it forms a belief about itself and about the world.

Bill: It's usually going to be around safety and security, safety, security, survival, basically. And, and let's just say the belief that it formed is, um, I'm not safe unless I'm quiet. I'm not lovable unless I'm, I'm not lovable if I, if I have needs, let's just say that's the belief. Yep. And that's a belief, by the way, that can be formed very early on, long before language.

Bill: Sure. Absolutely. I'm not lovable or I'm not safe if I have a need. Okay. So now, at another developmental stage, let's just say, I don't know what age that would be, five or six, you seem to have a pretty good understanding of the different ages that we hit, that we go through developmental changes, transformations.

Bill: Do you, do you, do you have an understanding of that? A little bit. Sure. Yeah. If we're going to build this, let's, let's see if we can stick to that as much as we can. Like an early stage would be as an infant, pre language. Okay. And there's this idea. I can't have needs. Otherwise, I'm not safe and don't have security.

Bill: So what would be a next stage?

Marty: Like the teenager, for example. Okay. All right. Definitely be in the next stage where the teenager might not feel that same, existential threat, but we'll get upset and rebellious. If, if you're not providing for its needs. Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah, it's actually you could look at it as defending the child.

Bill: Yes.

Bill: Yes. So, and that's in that explanation or that scenario that you just explained, uh, is the belief still the same? I am not safe or secure if I have needs as the belief changed. Has it been reframed or is it still the same old frame?

Bill: It could

Marty: be either. I mean, let's let's say that it has changed. Okay. That right that the teenager recognizes, you know, yeah, I don't but but there but there is still that core wound from the childhood that I don't in this scenario. I don't know if that's been transformed or not. Mm hmm.

Bill: But you're saying that the teenager might now be thinking of him or herself in a much different way than they did as a toddler.

Bill: Um, I'm not safe or secure. Now their concerns maybe aren't so much around safety and security as independence and autonomy. Exactly. Right. Right. Okay. All right. So. Which is a

Marty: different frame.

Bill: That is a different frame. Is it related to the original frame? Right. . Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is kind of feeling like it's getting outta hand for me in my, okay.

Bill: What I, what I originally was gonna say was that, that one line of, uh, possibility would be for, uh, the, the idea, the belief itself that was formed early on now gets updated because of something that's happened in life. And as you were saying, I used to believe that I was a loser, a, a bad musician. But then the reframe was, but that now, now that I've become a good musician, I see that I felt like I was a bad musician because I was comparing myself to people with experience and I didn't have any.

Bill: I drew the wrong conclusion. It wasn't that I was a bad musician. It was that I hadn't developed my skills yet. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, that's the kind of reframing that I'm talking about that needs to happen in coaching, especially, uh, but also I believe in therapy where when. The parts of us that drew the conclusions that, that explained what was painful, hurtful, or scary were not accurate, but served us because it gave us, gave us a sense of power.

Bill: At some later date, if we, if life helps us to update that context, that framing,

Marty: and then

Bill: frame it with what's more accurate, then we're free again. Now we become no longer tethered to that incomplete and unresolved.

Marty: There's a teleology to the, the way that you're looking at it, which, you know, hopefully we're heading somewhere by the, by reframing, but I think it's worth putting the caveat out there.

Marty: Sometimes it could just be a reframe from 1 thing. That's not good for you to another thing. That's not good for you.

Bill: So I'm going to, I'm going to stop escaping with heroin. Now I'm going to escape with Netflix. Something like that. That's pretty extreme. But yeah, um, that's okay. All right. So the reframing that I'm experiencing now, as I read this book, make yourself make your life a 10 is surprising the impact that I've had by reframing my past painful experiences into ones that would have turned out differently if at that time I'd known what I know now.

Bill: Yeah. It's been really empowering because, and this is the whole idea of it from, from Lightman's perspective. This is his intention. He says that we have, there's our conscious mind, and this isn't new information to me, but, but it's, and in fact, it aligns with some of the information that I've gotten from other sources.

Bill: I may have referred to this in another episode where John Asaroff in his book, The Answer, says that the conscious brain processes about 2000 bits of information per second. The unconscious brain processes about 400 billion bits of information per second. Hmm. That's the, that's the contrast between the conscious brain and the unconscious brain

Bill: Wow. So the conscious brain doesn't have nearly the horsepower that the unconscious does. It's just that we're aware of the horses with the conscious brain. Mm-Hmm. , the unconscious brain is super powered. And, um, there needs to be a communication between the conscious and the unconscious. And, and that's, and how Stuart Lickman defines the subconscious is that portal between the unconscious and the conscious.

Bill: I never understood that before, and I don't know if that's how other people think of it or not, but it was helpful to me. So he's saying that the communication needs to go back and forth. And if the unconscious can feed the conscious with memories from the past that were painful, as he walks us through this process, then the conscious then can send back to the unconscious a new experience to be stored and referenced when facing the possibility of new opportunity or challenge in today's life.

Bill: So what I found is that when I reframed these really painful experiences from the past, it seems like my unconscious started reacting to current situations in a different way. And almost like treating, recognizing that who I am is not who I was when I was limited, when I was so limited in the past.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I'm not the guy that drank every day for nine years anymore. I'm not the guy that didn't know how to have, have close, authentic relationships and intimate relationships with people. I'm not that guy anymore. I'm not the guy that lied all the time. I'm not the, I'm not the guy that was always in inner turmoil and conflict.

Bill: I'm not the guy that constantly doubted myself, but I was that guy and bits and pieces of my unconscious still think of me that way until I can give it a reframe using my conscious mind. Right, right. So that's that seems to be pretty powerful for me. Absolutely.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get it's not unreliable.

Marty: I said, I said, that's different from the general use of it, but it is. I think it's an example. This is a specific and and powerful example, but, you know. Just, uh, simple things like, well, you know, I want my, I want my spouse to go on this trip to Boston with me because I'm a history buff, but she's not so I have to find out, you know, like, oh, well, but, uh, you know, the Joneses are going and the Murphys are going.

Marty: And so there'd be all these people that you love there. And she's then she's into it because of the reframe. It's going to be a social thing, not a history thing.

Bill: Yeah. Look at it this way is a reframe. Right? Okay. Right. Well, you've got it framed. Of course, you don't want to go. Let me get, let's put it in a different frame and notice how nice this frame looks

Marty: picture

Bill: better now, don't you?

Marty: Another another way that I've used it, is when asking for referrals.

Marty: If I say to my client who I want to introduce me to new people, if I say to them, if you were in my shoes, who would you ask that's a reframe because it has them put themselves not in there. You know, if they think about, well, who do I want to ask to, you know, have an introductory conversation with coach kettlehead?

Marty: Oh, gosh, I don't know. But if I say. Um, you know, well, if you were in my shoes, who would you ask? Oh, well, definitely, because I know who you would like to work. I know who you could be effective for it. Like that opens things up to reframe it like that.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great use of it as well. Yeah, yeah.

Bill: So here's a real life example, and I haven't formed my objective yet, which is the next thing for me to do. I'm learning how to form the objective that I want to try to achieve, uh, as the first test of this reframing. I've, uh, Stuart Lichtman has had me build a Success team of internal parts that helped that that needed to be the, that needed to execute the qualities and the resources in order to have these reframed experiences and also the team members, the parts of me who helped me have the most successful.

Bill: Uh experiences that i've had in my life So now I have I have a combined team of about 18 parts of myself They've all got their own names. They've got all got their own symbols They all all have their own missions and what their strengths are. I've got that all Described i've got my success team all described and now they're ready to go to work for me I just need to tell them what it is that I want to have them accomplish for me so that They will, from my unconscious, without me efforting to do this, they will help me to accomplish whatever it is that I want to accomplish, as long as it's in the best, uh, uh, interest in my, of myself and for the highest good of myself and everybody that's involved.

Bill: Wow, I love it. I do too. I love it a lot. And I, and I'm really wanting to incorporate this into my coaching with IFS, but I need to learn it first. And, um, and so one of the things that I have been really aware of probably for the last three years is I don't like that the tyrannies, the tyranny men for as far back as I can remember, if I have these huge bellies and you've noticed that about me too, I have this big belly.

Bill: My brother has a big belly. My dad had a big belly, my grandpa, my uncle, my, my, uh, great uncles, all of them, these huge, and I used to think, well, those are beer bellies. And I only drank beer for nine years, but, and so at the age of 27, when I quit drinking, I didn't have a belly yet. And in fact, I didn't have a belly when I was 39.

Bill: I didn't start getting a belly until I stopped smoking. And the math worked on that. When I stopped smoking, I started eating instead. That I just switched it off part of it. I I wasn't eating meals properly I couldn't wait to get out away from the table so I could have a cigarette Or or I would skip a meal altogether.

Bill: I'd smoke instead Once I quit smoking now, I needed something oral something to feed the scratch the itch And so I started I started eating and I gained something like 30 pounds over the next three years.

Marty: Wow.

Bill: Yeah, and and that 30 pounds equals about 165 pounds for me. Well, about 3 months ago, I got up to 1.

Bill: I went to the doctor's office for my annual checkup. They had me get on the scale. They didn't let me take my shoes or jacket off.

Bill: Oh, she said, that's okay. This is an approximate estimate. Anyhow, I stepped on the scale. This is 177.

Bill: When I quit smoking, I weighed 135. Oh my gosh, 39 years old. Now 30 years later, I'm 30 pounds heavier. Now probably other people will say, well, that's what happens. You get older, you're not as active and you have too much time to go eat or something and your body doesn't metabolize that metabolize. I don't care.

Bill: I don't want to weigh 177. I don't want to weigh 165. I'll be good with 155. I've gone on special diets. I might even talked about this in a recent episode where I was on a, uh, I paid for a subscription. I won't name them then because I don't want to, I think it's a good program. It just didn't work for me, but, but, um, I quit it.

Bill: I quit the program and I kind of gave up on, on the weight loss and just kind of hoped it didn't get too far out of hand. But ever since I started this process, Lechman. I've been thinking about what would be my ideal weight. I'd love to weigh, I'd love to weigh 155 and I'm reading his account of losing, he, how he lost weight.

Bill: And he's saying, once I, once I got it programmed in and reframed everything from my parts of, they knew that this is something I could do, um, then they kind of went to work for me and I just stepped on the scale every day and just started marking to see how well they were doing. I didn't worry about what I ate.

Bill: I didn't eat. I ate as much as I wanted to. I just found I didn't want to as much anymore. But yeah, things were changing, but it wasn't because I was making myself do anything I didn't want to do. I wasn't trying here, I was just noticing. And for him, he lost his weight and then maintained it and kept it there, which is of course the trick.

Bill: So I, it's been two weeks since I got off that program and I was afraid to step on the scale. That's what I do. I just, I don't even want to see it. It just feels so bad when I step on the scale, I can see my belly, I can see how big it is. I know, I know I'm still weighing a ton. Well, when I quit checking the scale, I was at 167.

Bill: I lost some weight. I've been really trying hard and I did lose some weight. But since I stopped trying, I expected it to go back up again. Two days ago, I stepped on the scale and I'm 163. Broke through this, this barrier that I could not break through for the last three months. And I did nothing to accomplish it.

Bill: I haven't been trying. Except doing this litany work. That's it. That's the only thing I've been doing different. I'm eating what I want to eat as much as I want to eat as often as I want to eat. But I'm just noticing I'm not wanting to eat as much. And I don't, I haven't even officially started the process yet.

Bill: So there's something to this. It's Oh, yes, you have. I haven't officially started by, by framing an objective and saying, this is exactly what I want to accomplish by this date. Right. But something's already happening.

Marty: So I'm

Bill: excited about this, as you can tell. I want to learn a lot more. I, you know, Marty, you and I have been in the conscious personal development game for a long time.

Bill: We've talked about this. You, we talked about it in a recent episode. I think 3 episodes back where you and I were kind of comparing our paths and we saw just how diverse our paths have been.

Marty: At

Bill: arriving in, into this point in our lives where we're having these conversations every week. You and I come from completely different places.

Bill: Here we are both completely and deeply invested in personal development. Yeah, amazing. Just just amazing. So we've been on this path. You on yours, me on mine, and fortunately for me, we get to converge now and connect, and we've been able to do that now for the last, what, I think, seven years or so. I think it's wonderful, and I see you get excited about things, too.

Bill: I get excited about things, and when I see some possibility, I, I, I think, okay, well, this is it. This is what I've been looking for this whole time. Byron Katie, that's what I've been looking for this whole time. AA, that's what I, Landmark Education, IFS, Stuart Litman. These are all just tools that helped me to understand myself and, and help me to work with the resources that are built right in that I never got a manual for.

Bill: I'm, it's like, I'm finding the manual myself now.

Marty: Right. Right.

Bill: You do a lot of the same things. When you find something that works, you study it, you invest and you transform. Yeah. And it's, it's

Marty: interesting. You know that those then you're building the Russian dolls, you know, every, every one of those transformative experiences, you look back on your previous selves and see them in a different light.

Marty: Right. Right. You understand. Oh, wow. I used to 1, this is just an example. I, I used to think that I'm, like a material being trying to get to spiritual out trying to get a spiritual perspective. Right and and that I remember feeling that way and how hard that seemed back when I was 2030 years old and now I think of myself as a spiritual being dealing with the physical world or the material world and that's it's a whole different.

Marty: And so I can see how certain decisions. I made certain paths. I took people that I hung out with things I did. You know, I see them from, oh, you know, like, why did, why did I go along to that tier ton, for example, the first time it's, it was the strangest thing in the world to me. And now I look back on it as a spiritual being.

Marty: So it has been, you know, I could say a lot more about what that means to me. And I go, well, of course I was following my intuition. This makes sense. You know, it was a tool I needed in my toolbox, et cetera. Yes.

Bill: Yeah, exactly. We, I kind of think that we get what we need when we need it.

Marty: If we're, if we're open and willing, you know, um, cause you, you can put a lot of energy into, and this is the other way that people, people think this the other way around.

Marty: They think, Oh, I don't need a transformation. That sounds like a lot of work. Reframing my whole life. Ugh. You know, just pass the beer, but it's actually the other way around. It's a lot harder. It takes a lot more energy not to let yourself be transferred to stay in that rut takes a lot.

Bill: That's for sure.

Bill: That is for sure. And, and it is hard. It is hard to transform at first and then it gets rewarding and fun. Um, one of the things I used to say when I was still going to AA meetings was that when somebody would come in and celebrate and get their 30 day coin, once I was 30 years over sober, I could say this, it's a lot easier to be sober 30 years than it is to be sober 30 days.

Bill: Yeah, and that's really, really true today. After 41 years of sobriety, I've added so much on top of sobriety that it is so much easier to be alive and in my body and on the planet than it was when I had 41 days of sobriety. So much easier. Well, we need to wrap up. Wow. What a great conversation. This has been again.

Bill: Always is. Yes. Reframing. Yeah, maybe we'll do another episode if we're still doing this a year from now. I hope we are. Maybe we can revisit reframing and and see where this lead.

Marty: Yeah, I think there are a lot that's a good idea because there are a lot of it's. It's a very powerful tool. And there's a lot of applications and a lot of different ways to implement it.

Marty: So, um, I think I, I think would be a worthwhile topic to come back to at some point. Yes.

Bill: Well, I think that you and I have plans to record another episode tomorrow. So, until tomorrow, Marty until and for the listener until the next episode of not your typical leadership coaching. We'll talk to you next time.

Bill: Thanks. See you there. That concludes another episode of Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching. We hope you found inspiration and valuable insights to fuel your leadership journey. Remember, true leadership is not about you. It's about empowering others. Take your insights to heart and cultivate a leadership mindset that will transform you from within. Thank you for joining us on this quest to leadership excellence. Don't forget to subscribe and stay tuned for our upcoming episodes where we delve deeper into the art of leadership. Until next time, remember that you have the power to lead with confidence and compassion from the inside out.