Welcome to another episode of Not Your Typical Leadership coaching with Dr. Martin Kettelhut and as my co host, and my name is Bill Tierney. I am a results coach and a certified IFS practitioner. This is part two of identity in a previous episode called identity. We discussed the shame identity, the false identity, and the true self.

Bill: Most of that was focused around concepts and ideas that I was. Bring me into the conversation and Marty, you had some wonderful things and, client stories to relate what I was sharing too. And I just happened to listen to the episode myself today because it was just released and I enjoyed it so much that, I thought I'd give you a call and see if maybe you had time to record another episode today.

Bill: And thankfully you were available. So here we are having that conversation again. Welcome.

Marty: Thank you. That's good. It's good. I'm finding that this phenomenon at the core of what our conversation here is about identity, I'm finding it cropping up more and more, like more and more people are getting in different disciplines and in different vernaculars, so to speak, are onto this, that, that delicate moment in our young years where we recognize we are not the whole world. There's a separation that happens. And then we start identifying it versus us, them versus me, all that. And it's a, it's crucial. It's absolutely life defining

Bill: What are you referring to now? The recognition that you have, that you've separated yourself from who you really are. Is that what you're saying is crucial?

Marty: just that there's a separation. We don't realize what. what you and your discipline brings to the conversation is like the realization like, oh my God, that I was separating from who I really am, but I think what we were pointing to last time was how it starts with this realization that we're separate, and then the move to identify.

Marty: Then who am I?

Bill: If I'm separate, then who am I? Before we hit record, I asked you to grab that book that you talked about in part one of identity and you did it. And there's a poem in there that I thought we, we could start to as an inspiration for this conversation today.

Marty: Let me just set the stage just a little bit. So we're talking about Jon Welwood, J O N 1 L Welwood. He's a Buddhist psychologist.

Bill: I see. Okay.

Marty: These are not brand new books, by the way. This has been out for a long time. But he does such a good job. He says our basic state of openness, so you know, our true self, you might say, which often feels like a soft spot at the core of our being, is the source of love and many other essential qualities, yet it also gives rise to intense psychological pain in childhood when we're not seen or valued. In order to reduce our sensitivity to this pain, which threatens equilibrium. We learned to shut down the openness of our body and mind. This gives us a sense of control, helping us adapt and survive the vicissitudes of our family circumstances. The child is like an open hand that gradually contracts and closes this protective tightening becomes installed in our body mind as a set of chronic rigid defenses that cut us off from our feelings and thus shut down our capacity to respond to life freely and openly. In our attempt to say no to the pain, we wind up saying no to ourselves instead. this way, we inflict on ourselves the core wound that will haunt us the rest of our lives. We start to separate from our own being, right?

Marty: And then

Bill: that's, I just want to pause there for just a second and comment. And how profoundly excellent that was. That was so well described and how profound the whole idea that he describes is

Bill: beautiful. Now that's John Wellwood.

Marty: Yeah. And in a section of the first chapter called False Self as Soul Cage. He quotes Emily Dickinson, a line eight eight lines from a poem of hers that says exactly that in poetry. If you don't mind my reading them.

Bill: Oh, I'd love you to read that.

Marty: There is a pain so utter, it swallows being up, then covers the abyss with a trance, so memory can step around across upon it. As one within a swoon goes steady, when an eye would drop him bone by bone.

Bill: Powerful.

Marty: Yeah. The abyss she speaks of here refers to the sense of inner emptiness that results from losing touch with our being. As children, we need to cover this abyss with a trance. With beliefs, with imaginings and stories about who we are. To distract ourselves from this painful loss. So our mind can step around across upon it. Then somebody we imagine ourselves to be is a fault. That's the somebody we imagine ourselves to be is a false self that provides a semblance of security and control as one. Within a swoon goes steady. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful interpretation of the poem and and a really, like you say, a really excellent description of the phenomenon we're talking about.

Bill: I gotta say, the last couple of lines of that poem lost me. Something about the eye and the bones. What does that mean? I

Marty: His interpretation, facing the loss of connection with our being would seem devastating. When an open eye would drop him bone by bone, thus at least some of the time our false self functions as a cozy, comfortable cocoon where we feel safe. That's his interpretation of that line.

Bill: see. I see. Okay. Yeah. How great all of this is. And I'm noticing that the subtitle to the book, Love and Awakening. That you're reading right now is discovering the sacred path of intimate relationship

Marty: Yes.

Bill: and the name of your book, Leadership as Relationship. I wonder if there's a way to tie these two together a little bit.

Marty: There's a lot of ways. I don't know if we want to go on down that road right now. Um,

Bill: Do.

Marty: The fourth part of my book is a workbook and it does address this. It has, it gives you an exercises to identify What was it you decided in that crucial moment that WOA talks about? And it guides you in identifying, those beliefs and habits and imaginings that you put in place way back when, and the reason to do so is that you can't be in your full power, you're not yourself.

Marty: You're not in your full power. It's like. If the radio were only, had only transistors in it and the electricity just got lost in the transistors and never produced the sound to listen to. That's what

Marty: we're like a lot of the time, all of our vital energies caught up in these imaginings and protections and all of that. So we need to identify it. We need to get clarity on what happened and what we decided so that we can work with it. You're not going to just annihilate that won't happen, but to you there and I would defer to you to explain what we can do with that. But the point is that then we can actually come full on in our full power that supple being that we really are can come back out.

Bill: Supple being and yet just amazingly powerful being. Yeah, I know that what you're referring to is what to do when you say that you'll defer to me for what to do about that. You're talking about the IFS model, of course. Yes. But what I, but I like what one of the things that you said, we're not going to annihilate that.

Bill: In other words, we're not going to seek out and find what it is that we made up about ourselves and the strategies that we formulated in order to survive that, something about the childhood that those words were woven together so beautifully the vicissitudes of our childhood, something like that.

Marty: Oh yes. Yes. This gives us a sense of control, like to have a story to tell, you know, to say well, it's because I'm, I'm unlovable.

Marty: This gives us a sense of control

Marty: by we identify, helping us to adapt to and survive the vicissitudes of our family circumstances.

Bill: That's it. That's it. So well put. Yeah. And you just said we're not going to seek out and we're not going to annihilate that. We, that's not our goal here. We don't want to seek that, those stories, those beliefs about who we've decided we are and annihilate them. That doesn't work. That's the way of the world.

Bill: That's the way most of us do it. The war on drugs, the war with other countries, the war between each other war. We're not going to, we're not going to do that. It doesn't work. We haven't figured out that it doesn't work yet, but it doesn't work.

Marty: Yeah. It actually gives power to those stories, right? It makes them more. It's like they get stronger from the fight we have with them. They build up muscle and they're even less likely to be displaced when we need them to be. They're stronger now.

Bill: But what we resist persists. While we're busy focusing on it, what we focus on, we attract more of. So the beautiful thing about the IFS, internal family systems model is that we approach it from a place of curiosity and interest, open hearted, compassionate interest to understand.

Bill: Why would we make this all up in the first place and what was it that we made up about it so that we can unburden from it?

Marty: Well, I heard somebody say something recently that felt right to me. They say, if you were born, I don't know, with a cleft palate or a deformed arm or something like you learn to live with it, to be free with it, as opposed to identify as it.

Bill: Yes, yes. Recently I've been talking to several people, including some of my clients about my discomfort with the actual process of not annihilating it, not annihilating these exiled ideas of who we are. Thank you. Not annihilating the efforts of our inner protector parts that are trying to protect us from a belief formed around this confusion, I'm not lovable as an example that can create all kinds of confusion and the need for all kinds of armature and machinery and strategies and techniques.

Bill: That make, that handicap us, that just completely limit and handicap us, and to,

Marty: sorry. Go ahead.

Bill: we're both really inspired by this, I can tell. It's hard to hold back, isn't it?

Bill: And but the idea that I've been discussing with others is how wonderful it is that IFS makes sense. That's what I love about it,

Bill: that it makes heart sense. It makes sense to a level of the heart and the body. It's logical, it's rational and it was logical and rational when we decided there, Oh, it must be me that has caused this family circumstance that's so painful for me.

Bill: That's good. That's good news. If it's me, then there's something I can do about it. Logically, we put it, yeah, logically, we build all this defense up. Logically, we can break it all down too, but not by going to war with it, but by helping those parts of ourselves that, that created that internal structure, that there's a better way that, and that the information that they base that on doesn't actually match reality.

Bill: That's how the unburdening happens, right?

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. It fits, it explains the experience that we have. It explains it clearly and well. I was just gonna, offer up the example of myself. We're using, I don't know if the listener can tell, but we're using a new podcast

Marty: Platform. and when we first got on it a couple of weeks ago to practice at this I was having a hard time with it. I'm not as adept and adapting as you are to new technologies. And so one of those structures that got put in place way back. In this moment that well, what's talking about in my family of origin my dad was very critical when you were, when I showed up as incompetent, right? Oh, you can't do that.

Marty: What's your problem? Whether it was, pouring the milk on the cereal or lighting the fire in the fireplace or giving directions to the driver, if you messed it up, he would be very quick to say, ah, what's your problem? And you felt, and I grew up feeling. Like I was incompetent in a lot of ways.

Marty: And and he was the only, again, this is another point that Wellwood makes that we're not focused on today. He was trying to, it was my dad's, not all that well thought out way of trying to get me to be competent. Like you should know this, figure it out. Like it. Granted, that's not the best way, but his intentions were good.

Marty: I know that, but the point is here for us today that I I became defensive with you and with our technologist who's helps us so well and does so much good for us. I became snippy and blaming you guys for the problem. It was totally out of character. Because I was back there, I was a five year old again, being told I was incompetent, right? And so I started stepping and trampling on my identity right there in front of you.

Marty: And that was all, I wasn't free. I was hooked.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: And, but, and as it's happening, I'm like watching, watching my Poise just run away from me. And so I knew I had to go back and figure out what happened there.

Marty: It wasn't like something or took me. And so then I identified it and you were helpful in, in, in doing so. And I was able to see Oh yeah, that's what took over. I, and I was able to restore that supple being again and say, gosh, I'm sorry, like that, it wasn't how I wanted to be with you.

Marty: And we were but that's an example. The reason I brought it up is that's an example of this whole mechanism that got engaged that is not true and not real. Yeah.

Bill: friends calls that a parts attack. One of my IFS friends, you had a parts attack. Yeah. And the way I supported you and getting through that, I, I recognize I was not the only thing that I was not the only support that you had. There was many, there were several things that you did to work your way through that and find your, find yourself back to your supple being to your true self, to self as IFS says but was to get curious about what part of you got, okay.

Bill: Hooked there. And more than just one part, but but all of the parts that got hooked by it were all organized around a tender, vulnerable, young part of yourself. I don't even remember specifically what it was, but it happens this way every single time. There's an exiled part that's vulnerable and exposed.

Bill: And when exposed, the whole system feels at threat. It's as if the moment the inception of the structure took place. In that childhood, it's not always childhood, but often, most often it's childhood, is being revisited in that moment. And it's like a panic bill. Parts are just going nuts because things are back out of control again.

Bill: So getting curious about those parts and having them, this is what amazes me too about the IFS model is, the parts themselves will help me to understand me in ways that surprise me. And for them it's yeah, this is my life. This is how I live every day. Welcome to my life, right?

Marty: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that the listener will also recognize not only in yourself, but also in your listening to others. There are moments when, your wife is in, she's doing the past. You were there having a conversation with her in the present and suddenly she's living in the past. She's invoking something that's not here now. And so we can have compassion and we can start to open that up and break that down and be with and unpack things. And I think that's, otherwise, like maybe in a corporate setting, if this happened. You would have just fired me, or I, or we would have been, rivals in the office.

Marty: Like it would have just stuck and been this ugly thing the rest of our lives. And IFS is such a, or Buddhist psychology is such a brilliant thing that it brings us, it allows us to get back to who we really mean to be.

Bill: Eventually. With intention and commitment, eventually. You may recall, now that you brought this up and we're talking about it in this public forum, if you don't mind, I want to remind you of something that happened maybe the week before that happened. And that was that I said, you okay? You and I came on to, into a meeting together, and you were off.

Bill: I could tell that you were off. And I said, you okay? What's going on? And you denied it. You said you may not have been fully aware of it. I don't know, or at all aware of it.

Marty: I was, I just didn't know how to talk about it.

Bill: I see. I see. So this is my point. You just brought, you just painted a scenario about a husband and a wife where a listener might be the husband and the wife is, has just found herself in the past

Marty: Mm-Hmm.

Bill: husband's in the position of compassionately understanding.

Bill: Oh, she's in the past. This isn't, the perfect ideal scenario. In a perfect world, the husband is thinking, Oh, this isn't about me, this is about her stuck in a mess. How can I help her to get present again?

Bill: Without going into blaming and getting angry and without having my, Insides all stirred up because I'm making it about me and getting my feelings hurt because she's treating me like whoever it was that hurt her in the past.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: That can be reversed as well. Obviously, so if I am the one that's gotten Hooked into the past and I'm aware at some level maybe, or maybe I'm not even aware that, that what's happening in this present moment is actually, I'm, what I'm reacting to in this moment is not actually this present moment, but something that got triggered by this present moment.

Bill: Eventually that's the goal. One of the goals in healing is to get to a place where I say Oh, my parts have taken over again.

Bill: I'm actually being hijacked right now by parts of myself that are hurt, scared, angry, critical, doing their thing. And that makes it almost impossible for me to show up as the best and highest version of my adult self in this moment.

Bill: So what do I need to do? And the answer to that question is always to pause.

Bill: Pausing creates a portal back into the present moment. Oh, that, what did you just do? What was that?

Marty: Pawing. Sorry.

Bill: What is that? Tell me.

Marty: I It's a joke. Paw. I'm pawing as opposed

Bill: I, you know what I thought you were doing?

Bill: I'm usually the one doing the puns and you did a fifth time just now. Okay. When you describe the little boy, it's like a child with this hand open, opening, which gradually closes around to constrict himself. Yeah. As you were reading. So back to the idea of

Marty: Why I knew that I was going into the past is because two things. I knew it was way inappropriate the way I was reacting to you. And also, I remember distinctly this feeling from times in the past when my dad was yelling at me,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: that's not an accident. That's where this comes from. Hello.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Once the connections made, it's clear. It's obvious, isn't it? And that's the experience that I have when I am the client and someone's facilitating or I'm just facilitating myself the IFS model, which, by the way, is another great thing about IFS is we can facilitate it ourselves. We don't have to set up a therapy appointment or a coaching appointment to benefit from the IFS model.

Bill: If we can learn to number one, pause. Yeah. What's that look? What was that?

Marty: You're going to put yourself out of business here.

Bill: No, I'm not actually. My business is to help people learn how to do this

Marty: I see.

Bill: and there's no shortage of people that need to learn how to do this and no shortage of people that want to. to do this, number one, we have to have awareness.

Bill: I have to have awareness as you just described that. Oh, I knew. At some point, somehow, you knew you weren't coming from your highest and best version of yourself, and you knew that what was happening externally in your world, your struggle with technology in that moment, was really not what was causing what was happening here.

Bill: It was poking something in you, but it wasn't causing you to feel what you felt. It just poked it. It was like the on button, the switch to, so number one, be aware when I'm not coming from my default true self from my, what's the description from John Wilwood, the being that he describes supple, supple being

Marty: Yeah, that's one way he says it.

Bill: when I'm not coming from my empowered, clear, compassionate, loving, connected self. When in fact I'm when instead I'm being reactive and feeling blaming and critical and criticized and self conscious or whatever version of that, that, to number one, be aware of it, catch it as soon as I can.

Marty: And there might be some people listening who are saying, shit, I've been that way for years.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: How do I get back to me?

Marty: This has been ingrained for a long time,

Bill: so be aware, become aware. Be willing to suspend the idea that this is who you are. Be willing to consider the possibility that even though this has been going on for a long time, as long as you can remember, even

Marty: Like you, you've inherited this, even, you're not to blame in that sense it's, but you can still pause. When this happens and get back to something more real than that.

Bill: those of us who our entire lives, for as long as we can remember, have been the false identity that we think of ourselves as, or the shame identity that we are afraid might be true about us,

Bill: We still have moments in life when that supple being emerges, whether it's walking out of the door in the morning to a beautiful day and just being hit with the amazement of that moment, in that moment, you're connecting to your true self.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: For me, almost every time I'm around a baby, it's always been this way for me. Almost every time I'm around a baby. Until they start demanding, screaming, and needing their diaper changed. Something about babies and animals.

Marty: a housemate you know him Samadhi, who

Marty: lived in San Diego and he was good. He was very good at identifying. He could tell from the way I was interacting, whether it was with the mailman or a client or him. He could tell immediately whether or not I was in my, Real self or hooked by something.

Marty: And he would call it out. He was especially good at calling out when I was in my true self, like those moments you're talking about. And he would say, Oh, I see your, the way he put it was you're loving people

Marty: because when I'm my true self, I love people. I,

Marty: I really like. And that's why I chose this career too. Because it comes from, it was a choice from true self. And the, and when I'm not loving people, it's obvious. I can, I use my brain to just make shreds out of folks. It's terrible. It's terrible. And he would notice and go, huh, not loving people today. Are you?

Marty: And I knew

Marty: you got to go pause big time.

Bill: I remember that about him. Yes. So let's get back to what is it that, what somebody can do, even if they don't have any training in this model at all.

Bill: If they've never been around it, that they don't know about IFS, we know when we're hooked. My wife, my second wife used to use that term hooked. We know when we're triggered.

Bill: We know when we're being hijacked by something happening inside and that just takes control. And we find ourselves five or ten minutes later after having done or said something that we regret,

Marty: Mm

Bill: how in the world did that happen? How is it that I said that thing to this person that I love or respect?

Bill: How is it that I put myself in this position? How did that happen? I didn't shoot. It doesn't feel like I chose that. You didn't.

Marty: Yeah, you know what? This might not be it's definitely not THE answer, but I've noticed lately I'm in love with the character in a novel that I'm reading.

Marty: And so one of the things that I will do when I recognize I'm not being myself, with a capital S, I think how would HE do this?

Marty: Oh, and that reminds me of my true self,

Bill: That's beautiful. What would Jesus do? It's the same idea.

Marty: exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Bill: And I love that because this idea of Jesus points directly to essence, to true self.

Marty: Bravo.

Bill: Isn't that great? Yeah. So what would Jesus do? That's what would the character in your book do? What would someone with essence, what would I, if I were coming from my essence, from my true self do in this?

Bill: Yes. And that's a great reminder. But before we can even get there, we have to be aware that we've been hijacked. And then once we become aware that we're hijacking pause, and as you say, in that pause, our effort is not to annihilate that part of us that's trying to help and actually causing the opposite effect.

Bill: By the way, that's what our parts do often. They want so badly to help, but because the way they're helping is informed by a past that is incomplete and unresolved. The help that they offer actually causes just the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish. Good

Marty: in the defense attorney. I'm in on jury right now, right? The last week in this coming week. That's why we're making this video in an odd time. It's not our usual time. And I won't, I can't say anything about the case and I won't, but there was a moment when the defense attorney got flustered. She was trying to ask the question, was not okay with the judge and the District attorney was objecting and all this and she said let me just drop that for now because she knew she, she was triggered and I'll come back to that and, move on

Bill: Good for her. She suspended that, that part of her that wanted to push for that question to get answered or to be understood, she recognized it wasn't happening, she got that part to pause. That's very good.

Marty: flusteredness, she was like, not behaving the way she wants. She wanted to be cool

Marty: and ice and she recognized she was getting

Marty: and so let me just put that aside for now. And she did come back later.

Marty: When she got her second chance

Marty: with this witness, she came back and she did redress the question from her true being.

Bill: In a way that was acceptable to without objection and to the judge

Marty: That's right. That's

Bill: very good. And that's such a great example because whatever she did to tap back into her wise adult self gave her access to innate resources that we all have to be able to show up as the best and highest version of ourselves.

Bill: in any given moment. So the pause, by the way, does not need to be for a day or for a year. It can be for a breath. And I, and I say for a breath on purpose. I don't, I didn't say it can be for five seconds. I said it can be for a breath. And the reason I'm saying that is because breath, if I recognize, okay, I'm being hijacked by a part, then okay, I may or may not even recognize in this moment that part's trying to help.

Bill: It's not intending to cause the problems that it's causing right now. It's trying to help. So I'm being hijacked. What I'm going to do is I'm going to pause and I'm going to take a breath. And as I breathe, I'm going to notice, I'm going to bring my conscious attention to the breath. Not to the part not to anything other than the breath itself.

Marty: Yes. Yes. Get out of the head, connect with what's at the sensation of breathing.

Bill: Yes. The reason that's so powerful to me, what I understand about this, it is powerful. And how I know it's powerful is that when I do it, it works. And what works is that I get present.

Bill: Am no longer anchored, tethered to the past. I'm not even aware when it's happening that I am tethered to the past, but the moment I pause to breathe.

Bill: I loosen that tether, and I find myself in the present moment, and in this present moment is the only time I can access those innate resources that I need to show up as my best and highest version. That is leadership. It starts with self leadership. It happens in a breath, and then once I do access those resources, then I can lead.

Marty: So that's great. That brings us full circle to that question that you asked much like an hour ago. What's the connection between this the, Emmy, Emily Dixon Dickinson poem and leadership? There? There it is. Thank you. Hilarious.

Bill: Absolutely. And that's, I know that's covered in your book in your words, in the way that you approach it. And you don't talk about the IFS model. In your book, you, what you talk about is more like, from what I can see and I've read parts of you, I haven't read the whole, heard the whole thing yet.

Bill: But it's essentially the way it strikes me is it's boots on the ground leadership and how, um, how it's related to relationship.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah, exactly right. I wanna tell a. Augmentation of what you were saying just now about pausing one of the first things I did in my career as a coach was I co led a nine month coaching program for financial advisors with a gentleman named Serrano Kelly some people might know him. He's a big deal. And between weekends, they would come for a weekend in a hotel somewhere and some beautiful place, and then you go away and then come back on the second weekend, we gave them the assignment.

Marty: Between now and the next time we get together, pause between all activities. And this was the most transformative assignment of all of the things that they did in those nine months. You could see it changing people, go get, get helping them get back in touch with them, their truth. And get in the car and before you get in, before you drive away, you pause. And then once you get to where you're going, before you get out of the car. You pause, right? And so imagine a pause, put a little cushion of pause between each activity that you do all day long for a month. Imagine how well in touch with your truth you'll be.

Bill: Wow.

Marty: activity you let go of, okay, it was a hassle to get here. But I'm here and it's good. The car's running okay. And now I move on. Imagine letting go of every moment as you have it and setting yourself back on course for the next constantly. It was a very transformative exercise.

Bill: And letting go facilitated by that brief pause by getting present again

Marty: That's right.

Bill: by any bumper sticker, positive platitude, talking myself out of feeling crappy. No, pausing and getting into the present moment.

Marty: that's right.

Bill: Beautiful! That's, what a life hack that is. Yeah that's what I've been pointing at on steroids.

Bill: That's fantastic. So awareness. Be aware. I'm being hijacked right now. Even if it feels like I've been hijacked my whole life, I am being hijacked right now.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: What I'm being hijacked by is not a demon. I haven't been possessed by anything or anybody. I am being hijacked by parts of myself that are still stuck in the past and trying to help in the present moment.

Bill: To solve a problem that no longer exists.

Marty: And I give them full credit for jumping into action way back when and helping me survive that situation. And I want to have a conversation with them now about the appropriateness and of that now and what else they might want to do with themselves instead.

Bill: That is the second level. There's actually two levels to approach it at. The first level is, can that part just join me in breathing right now with this one set of lungs that we share

Marty: Mm in this present moment?

Bill: Often these parts that are tethered to the past think they still have their young bodies and that they're breathing on their own separately.

Bill: No, we share this same body, me and my parts. So if I can get my parts to breathe with me and share this set of lungs in this particular moment, we can have the conversation later. But that just reminds them, here we are. Oh, that's right. We're in Bill's adult life, not in Bill's child life,

Bill: right? Yeah.

Bill: So that's one level. Let's pause and get back to self. Let's get back to access to the resources of self and essence in this moment. And then the other level is, let's have that conversation about what happened back then. Let's have that conversation about what you're doing in my present life.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. When you get activated to help me part and let me give you an update and let's see if maybe we can, let me help you to resolve what happened in the past so you can join me in the present moment because I need you here. I don't need you back there. And that is the healing. Yeah it's amazing.

Bill: It's powerful. Marty, we've been going on for over 40 minutes. Can you believe it?

Marty: Unbelievable. It always goes so fast.

Bill: Another great conversation. I'm glad that we decided to go with identity part two, and the timing on this should put this episode out as episode number 32 while, and identity was episode 31. We have two more in the bank that'll come out and we'll record another one maybe next weekend.

Bill: I know that you're. You're going to be in jury duty again this week and you won't be available to record one during the week. Is that correct?

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Yeah. So maybe I'll see you next weekend. If not, I'll see you in about 10 days and we'll get another episode out and who knows what we'll be talking about then.

Bill: Thanks for joining me. Have a good rest of your Sunday.

Marty: You too, Bill. Thanks.