Marty: Welcome to another episode of Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching. With me, Martin Kettelhut and Bill Tierney, we have a special guest today, Hans Phillips, an ontological coach of many years and great reputation. I've done coaching with him myself and profited enormously from it. I've known when was the 1st time we met Hans back in the years.

Marty: Wasn't it? Yes, sir. sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, in San Diego. That's where I was living, but you were visiting. We've been friends. We've been, we've coached each other. We've been through a lot of different things together and it's great to have you here today.

Hans: Thank you. Great to be here.

Bill: And the 3 of us have a connection in this way.

Bill: Hans is the common denominator Marty and how you and I know each other. Hans invited me to a Friday morning mastermind group made up of some amazing and brilliant coaches, some of whom are still participating in that mastermind group on Friday mornings. Hans, I will forever be grateful to you for that and several other things, frankly.

Bill: We also have another common friend. Carlos Jones was my first real coach, and Carlos introduced me to you, You introduced me to accomplishment coaching and to this mastermind group, and, you've really contributed to my coaching career. Let me do the formal introduction by reading the bio that you provided for me, and as I read it, I just want the listener to know that, There's nothing here that Hans has asked me to read to introduce him that I would disagree with.

Bill: In fact, I agree with every single bit of it. This has been my experience. Here we go. Thank you. Hans Mentoring is designed to challenge you to rethink and gain access to your personal best. This can be. in the area of family, relationships, business, career, legacy, or life itself. Most people have done their best with what they already know.

Bill: They may have consulted with people, books, or how to seminars to get the right advice or information. However, the outcome, though incrementally better, It's not always satisfying. Hans works with people who are interested in a once and for all shift in particular areas of their lives. Once committed, Hans mentors people to access a new ability to see and take action from a new and powerful place.

Bill: This shift is permanent and, as a result, alters who they are now and in the future. Clients are able to get, have, and keep what they want right now. And Hans calls himself a performance consultant.

Marty: So all of that is relevant to our topic today, which is something that at least in my experience with my clients almost always comes up with leaders.

Marty: And that is confidence. It even gets to the point where people come to me and say, I have imposter syndrome. It's become a syndrome. I don't know if I really should be doing this leading thing. There are lots of great stories about actors, military leaders, all kinds of people in leadership positions who suffer at times over whether or not they're really meant to be doing, to be out in front, to be giving orders, to be setting the pace, to be leading in any way.

Marty: And it comes from a lack of confidence that's that can seep in at times. So that's become a theme of your coaching is that I understand Hans and you've got something to say about that. So that's our topic for today. Where would you like to

Hans: dive in? Right there? That's a great place. Yeah.

Hans: Confidence ebbs and flows. And most people have 2 or 3 sources of confidence, and if those sources get exhausted, or they don't have access to them, their confidence disappears, the confidence squared that I have begun to write about and, been working with my clients on came out of a breakdown in my life.

Hans: Coming up on three years ago where I got depressed and I didn't realize it. I have a dynamic personality. I have a ton of self awareness. I've been working on myself since I was 15 years old. I'm 63 now. And I thought I'm fine. I'm a little down, but I'm fine. And I was not fine. And I isolated, I didn't tell anybody and it got worse and worse and worse to the point where, when I got discovered what was actually going on, when my depression kind of had me hit the bottom, I almost lost everything.

Hans: And confidence was not in, even in the picture then, but, that devastation. Led me to waking up at four o'clock in the morning. There was a lot at stake, almost lost my marriage. My son didn't speak to me for six months, almost lost my business. And I was waking up at four o'clock in the morning, not feeling very confident, not feeling very motivated.

Hans: But after four or five days of that, I realized, you know what, my gym opens at four o'clock in the morning. Maybe I should just go to my gym. I'm a member at a family gym here in Santa Cruz, California. And I would just spend the next three hours doing everything there. By the end of about three months, I had 10 different items that I would do every morning from 4 a.

Hans: m. to 7 p. m. or 4 a. m. to 7 a. m. for three hours. And I've done that every day, maybe missed a day or two a month or 21 months. And my confidence is off the charts right now. That's a huge ask to get people to do 10 self care items in a three hour time period, as coaches, we all ask our clients to take care of their wellbeing and the goal is.

Hans: Out of a day, if you could hit three, five, or seven, that would be awesome. My point here today is to tell people, if you'll make the time for what I call super self care, you will get self care squared. Like you'll get a source of confidence that is reliable and repeatable and sustainable. Now, part of my self care is I go on the cold plunge every day.

Hans: Those three minutes are completely informative. I can tell you exactly how my day is going to go based on the three minutes in the cold plunge. If the time is slow, I'm like, Oh, it's going to be a slow time day, which makes the cold plunge a little longer, but it's pretty cool to know that, wow, there's going to be spaciousness in my day.

Hans: If the time is fast, it's like, okay, cool. It's going to be a fast time day. I'm going to get stuff done, but the day's going to fly right by. And then if it's painful, I know, okay, I'm disintegrated in some way, shape or form. And my job is to get integrated in this beginning part of my day. It signals to me that something's off if it hurts.

Hans: As a leader, if I had a little, you know, confidence barometer and I could twist some levers and flip some switches and increase my confidence, every leader would do that. Right? And so that's what this self care thing does for me in the morning is I'm making sure that I'm. Exercising, recovering, relaxing.

Hans: I spend between a half hour and an hour in a massage chair. I've been doing that for 21 months. I'm famous as the most relaxed member of my gym, right? And so I've been practicing well being for going on 30 years. So it's not, I sort of have an unfair advantage, but I would ask people to consider just focus on five areas to begin with.

Hans: Food, sleep, stress reduction, water, and exercise. When you get those mastered, then increase to 10 items. Those 10 items can do, can be stuff that you're already doing or stuff that you want to do. So if you want to learn how to floss your teeth, put that on that 10 item list and practice that until you can have consistent 100 percent days again and again and again.

Hans: And then the third version of it is to do a list of things that you five years from now, let's say you're successful and it's five years from now. Now, what are you doing to take care of yourself? Cause that'll accelerate. The path from here to five years a lot more quickly than if you wait till then to take care of yourself in that way So any questions or concerns about what i've said so far?

Marty: The way you introduced it at the beginning was that people lose confidence when their Thing that they relied on goes away right and so what if The gym closes down or what if I get ALS or I'm assuming you would say something like, well, you can always take care of yourself.

Hans: It's true. And on occasion, when I miss a day, I'm like, I forgive myself for, okay, that's my day off and I'll go back to it. But the gym has closed, right? Or the hot tub is broken. I just remove that part From today, but I've got so much momentum that it just carries the day. Now I get injured.

Hans: Like I've gotten injured before. I now exercise at a less strenuous level at 63, on the advice of my chiropractor. So I'm not pushing a hundred percent. I'm not risking injury every day. But if I got something that debilitated me, I would shift. I was just talking to a client earlier today. He hurt his shoulder.

Hans: It's been three months. Yeah. But he hasn't done any exercise in the three months. He just stopped completely.

Marty: And

Hans: that more, that morning ritual being absent from his life and his leadership, he's really aware of it. So right after the call, he was going to get on his bike and, and go for a stationary pedal.

Hans: So there's all kinds of ways to work around it. And there are some people with some very debilitating diseases, injuries, whatever illnesses. Who are at the gym and maybe they're only able to do this exercise or, you know, weight because they have no lower body stuff, but whatever you got, move it, exercise it also calm it down, soothe it, get present to it, breathe into it.

Hans: Relax it, put heat in it, put cold in it. Like, you know, there's lots to do. It's interesting that you say this. I've had a self care routine. It takes about 3 hours to, by the way, for, I don't know, at least 20 years now. I didn't realize it was contributing to my confidence so I'm like, getting what you're saying sort of

Marty: in retrospect, and I think you're right what what do you find as you implement and work with partner with people on implementing? It's what what turns out to be the most. challenging for people about upping their confidence by having a self care routine.

Hans: I first want to say that I remember being inspired by you, by your level of commitment, by the different varieties of self care that you practice, by your setting and achieving goals in your swimming.

Hans: By your delight at hitting personal bests, like all of that inspired me. Thanks. Thanks for who you be.

Marty: Oh, thank you for saying that.

Hans: The force of my personality, my dynamic personality has carried me through a lot. I don't have to take care of myself to quote unquote lead, but if I'm going to impact the doubt, the fear, the anxiety, the insecurity, that's normal for human beings, I want to tie my wellbeing to my leadership.

Hans: So I do my wellbeing for my clients and my family and the people I haven't met yet. And all of those folks are counting on me to be the best that I can be. And so that helps me be the best that I can be on an ongoing basis. Cause left my own devices. Hey, my bed is a lot warmer than the cold plunge. I skip it, but I don't, but I don't want my leadership to be based on my person, just my dynamic personality.

Marty: That's great. I remember 1 of my 1st coaches said if it was just for me, you know, I'd stay in bed and order dominoes, but for God and country, I'll get up and get the job done. That's I think that's a beautiful observation. 1 that became 1 of the, 1 of the impetuses for the book that I have coming out in a month, which is on leadership as relation.

Marty: If it's just for me, you'd have to have a really big and maybe self centered. Personality to maintain, but if you've got if you've got that recognition, like this isn't just for me, this is for something bigger than me. This is for others. This is for the world. Then there's a built in motivation.

Hans: And for me, it keeps me humble, grateful, and graceful.

Hans: And that's really good to do battle with my ego. Cause my ego thinks we're awesome and we don't need to do much about that.

Marty: That's really important as side benefits, you get humbleness. And what, what was the, what were the three? You say grace, humble, graceful, grateful, humble, graceful, and grateful.

Marty: Like, wow. We need a lot more of that in this world.

Bill: So I would have to say that for me, even though I certainly have gone through periods of two to four hours a day of self care, out of, I, I did so out of fear that if I didn't, I wasn't going to be able to maintain the little bit that I had gained by staying sober. Since then, I've done enough healing inside that what I notice is that my default set point is at a pretty high level of confidence and it takes quite a bit to knock me off of that.

Hans: So I've been doing parts work in a different program for the last 14 years. I strongly recommend it. It's a great source of confidence for sure. Right. So yay for you that you found it and that you utilize it and that you're able to utilize it with your clients. There are many sources of confidence and we're talking about leadership here. So, as a leader, you've got a heart, you've got a body, you've got a mind, you've got a spirit. And I'm a big proponent of design, a program that takes care of all of those things. My son pointed out the other day, dad, time is our greatest asset.

Hans: And I said, I would agree with you. And then I would say the second asset is our ability to be an action, sorry, to be present and in action, doing purposeful work. Yeah, that would be our, that would be our second asset. And so if I have a body, I want to take great care of my body to be the best person I can be, father, brother, friend, mentor, and so I often ask people, Bill, you know, how do you take care of your car? Oh, I run it all the way to empty. I wash it once a month and I was like, okay, great. It's a great metaphor. Let's take care of you and your leadership in a new way. Cause typically how we take care of our cars is how we take care of our life.

Hans: So I would, I'm 63. How old are you Bill? 69 this month. 69. Cool. And so the game I'm playing is, How long can I be on the planet? How many days can I add to the end of my life? And so that's why I take extraordinary care of myself. And it's not hard to talk to leaders about how much, how would you like to have more impact?

Hans: And the more vital, alive, present, physically fit, mentally fit, emotionally fit, spiritually fit that a leader is, the easier they are to follow. So,

Bill: no doubt.

Hans: I'm not saying it's the way or the truth. I'm just saying this is a thing that I've discovered that

Bill: that works for me. For example, IFS is a therapy model. The training that I went into and went through over the course of about two years trained me on how to be a therapist. I'm not a therapist. I don't call myself a therapist and I don't say that I do therapy.

Bill: However, this model, really, if done according to how I was trained, is therapy. I did it that way for a couple of years and then realized something's missing. Well, what's missing was coaching. And so in order to get back into coaching and use the IFS model, I was able to go back to what I'd learned from this accomplishment coaching training that, that you designed that I went through and then get back to objectives, what's your coaching request, get, let's get curious about that.

Bill: How would you know if you'd accomplished just all of these really powerful questions that supplement. And make even more powerful from a coaching perspective, even as powerful as it is as a therapy.

Marty: We have different aspects of our being and our parts is 1 level of those aspects of our being, and so self care is probably not just trimming your nails. It's probably not just reading good books. It's probably taking care of the whole self, right?

Marty: Some clients, probably it's best to start with exercise because that's something that they recognizes the body is, that's a big part of who I am. And so starting there might be the best thing for a lot of people, but for other people, the place to start might be with them.

Marty: There's psyche and all of the voices and or parts in that are going on in their head. That might be the place to start taking care of the self 1st. And then. Maybe move on to the body all the different aspects of our being. We self care is all of it. You wouldn't neglect your mind for the sake of the body or vice versa.

Marty: And 1 of the things that I think that both of you are pointing to is that by taking care of these different levels of the self, we move beyond where we were like, oh, I see now that I can take care of me. I've changed in this respect. I've gotten better at. I have more awareness of whatever the improvement is and that's where the confidence comes from.

Marty: So I would even say, hypothetically, take, see what you think what really builds the confidence piece is knowing that we don't know ourselves that there's opening that, being that, like, Socrates, like, okay, know thyself, right? Know that you don't know. What's possible for you that there is always more that you were this, that you have this habit, those sort of things that have been and that there's more to know.

Marty: And so the confidence comes from being with this expandability, this grow ability, this develop ability in us, as opposed to trying to make this thing that I think I am work in the world, and it doesn't it needs to grow. It needs to change. And then we get confidence like, oh, wow, look what I did because I did that cold plunge.

Marty: You have three minutes in that process. Look what I saw about myself, my level of confidence, my readiness for the day, the things that are bugging me.

Hans: Lovely. And Bill, to your point, I was just talking out loud to my inner child and my petulant teen this morning in my kitchen.

Hans: We were dancing around and having a conversation. So that's great. Yeah. I think it's absolutely both. If I don't, if I don't deal with my parts, it doesn't matter how much self care I practice. And if I just deal with my parts, I'm going to get a certain level of confidence just whatever works for people, you know, like design, what works for you, explore, experiment.

Hans: I'm in, we're all in this grand experiment of the adventure of life and how, how present can we be to the adventure of life? It's a great place to be alive and be sober. Bill, I'm with you. Let's be sober while we're doing it. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. So

Bill: sobriety gets you into the waiting room of recovery hunts.

Hans: And it's all about connection for me and, uh, boy, my ability to connect with my wife and child and clients and friends in the last 21 months has really increased.

Marty: My confidence even increases over, if I just. Sit in like, well, I went through a very difficult period myself about 2 years ago, and not to go into too much detail, but dealing with, a family member who is going through a mental crisis and it was very threatening to me and frightening and discouraging and there will be times where just, you know, I'm letting myself be afraid for three minutes.

Marty: I noticed, okay, I made it through that. It gave me confidence, you know, okay maybe I can make it through the next two minutes to you know, like, so I think there's something to be said for. The detachment from mind like challenging yourself physically challenging yourself psychologically and seeing like, okay, I made it through that.

Marty: That's where I find. And like, I say, sometimes it's just by being with it, not doing anything therapy or exercise or anything. Just that reflective moment that contemplate a moment.

Hans: Yeah, sitting and I call it sitting in the discomfort and this has been a year of that like, oh, I don't have to do anything.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. And yet I'm still here capable to face the next moment. There's confidence there.

Bill: This idea we can do hard things. I believe that this contributes to the confidence as well. So hearing what you're saying, I can be with these feelings for the next 3 minutes. I can be with what I'm feeling right now.

Bill: Oh, I'm noticing that I have the capacity for this As opposed to oh my god. Oh my god. Oh, I got this. I'm gonna be overwhelmed any moment here I can't do this. I can't do this. I've got to cut and run. Of course that would require some inner presence and ability to be with these young scared parts but each I would have to say that each time i'm faced with something That I don't think that I can do and that I do it You Then I now increase my let's let me throw this out.

Bill: What if what confidence is is a combination of my ability to trust myself to trust my capacity and to know that there's really nothing to defend to the degree that I need to defend something to the degree that I don't trust my capacity and to the degree that I don't trust myself. That's a reflection of the confidence that the true confidence that I have you think of that idea.

Hans: And I would say the stronger we are in all these different areas, the more likely it is to occur and the more likely it is to last. That's the game that I want to play is I want to be, I want to be present. I want to be in action. I want to be able to relax. I want to be able to be at peace. I want to be able to do nothing and do something. Have the insecurities from the past, Be as small and as possible the fear in the present.

Hans: Same thing. And the anxiety about the future just to have that experience be as small as possible. That's the game I'm playing.

Bill: I'm loving this conversation and I'm aware that part of what I love about it is that all 3 of us have shared pretty vulnerably. We've let people see what maybe is a little bit hard to let people see.

Bill: And we don't know who's going to be listening to this and who's going to be watching this and yet we all three have put out there, I'm a vulnerable human being that is, that has struggled and had a hard time and it's suffered. And maybe that's one of the things that we three have in common too, is that because of that struggle, because of that, the suffering, we find motivation to do something about it.

Bill: Some, but not just a temporary fix like drinking used to be for me, a permanent lasting. I am absolutely committed to finding permanent lasting solutions to what have felt like eternal internal problems.

Hans: Yeah. About nine years ago, a number of my clients in the same month said, when you're vulnerable, it makes it so much easier to listen to you because we spend an hour together and it really does seem like you've got it all together.

Hans: And I said, well, for that hour, I could see that our culture was getting tired of leaders pretending like they had it all together. And that vulnerability was actually the growth edge of leadership. You know, show me your humanity and your greatness. So I've been doing that. And I think, I think authentic leadership includes vulnerability.

Hans: I'm not doing well, or I made a mistake or, could I get some support? Could you leave for a while? Like that. Right,

Bill: right. I had a group this morning of three lovely human beings and this is a fairly new group that is forming and in that group, just before it began, my notifications went off on my phone and I looked over and in a social media platform, someone had posted something criticizing me personally.

Bill: As you can imagine, I had an internal reaction to that and

Marty: need to

Bill: be present for this 90 minute session. I was about to facilitate. So, as we're as they're looking at me to okay, let's get started. I said, uh, okay. So let's, uh, okay. I just need to share with you. Some stuff just happened. Something just happened.

Bill: My parts got activated and let me just tell you what my parts did. So I had a part that felt criticized. I had a part that felt hurt. I had a part that was saying, yeah, but you have to facilitate this next 90 minutes and you have to have your stuff together. I had a part that was embarrassed to admit this.

Bill: I had a part that said, don't tell them,

Marty: right?

Bill: And I shared a few more things about that. And I said, thanks for just allowing the space for me to just speak for my parts. Because now that they know that I see them and that nothing bad happened by me, me telling you what happened, what I've just experienced.

Bill: They're all starting to relax and I feel more relaxed and more present now. You guys ready to get started? And they all said, no, can we, can we talk about what just happened? so much for telling us and letting us see that you have parts too, that you two can, can easily hijack your, your best intentions at any given moment.

Bill: I think really powerful about that. Beautiful.

Marty: Can I share something and ask you guys about what you think of this? As I was thinking about this, our topic for today, and I couldn't help but get present to the confidence that accrues in me when I recognize that there's a bigger energy in charge. Like, I'm, I'm not really in charge of life.

Marty: Yeah, there's some, there's some bigger energy that's really running the show and, you know, I have a role to play, but I get confidence when I realized like, Oh, I, you know, my ego might very well want to be in charge of life, but it isn't. And when I, when I can. You just step back and say, okay, let me make sense of what this bigger energy is got up its sleeve and how I can contribute to that or be in the flow of that.

Marty: I get I get a measure of confidence out of that. What do you think

Hans: I think Bill and I can both relate to the higher power concept. When I have faith in the fact that I'm a naturally occurring being in a naturally occurring environment and, there's energy happening and interacting and I'm a part of it, but I'm not the deal.

Hans: My intention makes a difference, but I can relax. I can have faith in this thing that I'm swirling around in and, That relaxing really brings me peace and has me show up and, be authentic and be intentional and have commitments, but also allows me to relax. Oh, that, that doesn't want to happen.

Hans: I don't have to push and pull at things. I don't have to make things happen. How about you, what do you think?

Bill: I would say that, my hesitation is only to, know whether I, let me just say that because of my involvement in 12 step. Yes. Higher power, the whole concept of God and higher power intruded and interrupted my commitment to not having anything to do with God at the age of 27 years old.

Bill: And it came as a real crisis to me because it was explained to me that I had a disease and that the only solution for my disease was to find a power greater than myself. And the claim was that that power would be God, but we aren't going to call it God. We're going to call it a higher power to soften the blow for those of you that don't like the idea of God. You heard me earlier say I was both shamed and scared sober. That was the fear.

Bill: The fear was, if in fact they are right, if I have a disease, And if the only solution to that disease is to find a power greater than myself, and if in fact that's God, I am, starts with an F, but I'll say screwed. I'm totally screwed.

Bill: Someone handed me a little red, thin red book that said, came to believe and said, read this. And I don't know if that book's still around or if it's still read, but there was little short stories in it about people just like me, who didn't want a thing to do with God. And who found their way to God by just coming to believe, by giving it a chance, by considering and looking for the possibilities.

Bill: And I began to do that. I began to read different books on metaphysics and different things that spoke to me. And I found my way to believing that there must be something greater, a power greater than me in the universe. And I wonder if I can actually tap into it. So there's me, and then there's this power greater than me.

Bill: And yet I feel this huge disconnect. How in the world can I ever breach that distance? Or connect, get that connection. And this has been a lifelong thing for me since I was 27. So for, for 42 years now. And here's where I am today. This is how I see myself and my relationship to what people might call God.

Bill: In the IFS model, self with a capital S is who I am in accomplishment coaching, it's referred to as essence. We could use words like true self, core authentic self. Who I am is who I was born as. Who I am is who I am today. And who I will be the day I die. I'm not saying that it doesn't change but what's consistent about it is who I am is, Perfect, total, and complete.

Bill: The moment that I decided I was anything less than that to help explain some of the pain and unresolved incompletions in my life, I separated myself from the rest of the universe. And I took on, including God, and I took on a mission to make sure that the rest of the universe never found out what I had just concluded about me.

Bill: Whatever it is I'm trying to hide, I've got to buffer myself with a facade, a false identity, And that's what I spent my life building up. And now I'm being told I have a disease and I better let a higher power in. It was, to say the least, very, very upsetting. What I believe now is that by tending to those parts of me that formed and organized around the pain, that had me separate from the rest of the universe, I begin

Bill: just a little bit at a time to be blessed with access to innate resources that have always been there, but that because of my fear, I've blocked myself from. Now I refer to them as innate resources, but what I really believe is that inside my inner community, bringing inner harmony, healing, and balance to my inner community gives me access to something outside of myself that we all can access.

Bill: That God? I think so. By now, I've drawn that conclusion. I don't need to use higher power anymore. It's God. And I no longer, I've had to do a ton of healing around these ideas of God that I got from church. But by, by now, When I'm in the flow, it's because somehow I've connected and bridge that distance between me and the source that has me be beat.

Marty: Yeah, that's why you said bigger energy flow, you know, so as not to exclude anybody who's doesn't want to talk about God. Yeah. I recognize that we're probably getting close to the end, and we've covered a lot. We've said a lot of things, vulnerable and edgy alike. And I'm just wondering, you know, is there anything that any of us.

Marty: with, like, that doesn't feel right, that you want to say something more about, that is incomplete or awkward.

Bill: I feel complete and clean, although I want to make sure that, I guess there's two things in my space. One is I so appreciate Hans that you've been our guest today, and there's something about you that brings out, for me at least, wanting to be fully participatory in the conversation. In other words, with the idea of having a guest on a podcast episode, Many times I imagine I'm going to feed you questions, and then we're going to listen to what you have to say about it.

Bill: You're the coach. You are a coach, and your energy is coach, which means that you've participated at a level that has invited both Marty and I to participate far more. Would you agree, Marty, than we normally do with our guests? I would agree. Yeah. So I want to thank you for that. And at the same time, I have another part that's saying, and we didn't really make enough room for Hans.

Hans: Not at all. I love the fact that we had a conversation. It was conglomeration of our brilliance and our experience and our wisdom and our questions and our answers. So beautiful for me, perfectly balanced for me. I would close with I heard this a long time ago.

Hans: I'm not going to be able to credit whoever this quote is from, but I love this. We're talking about competence and leadership. I'm going to mangle it, but here it is, great leaders, truly great leaders disappear in the process of leading and the people are left with, look what we did. That requires supreme confidence to step back and allow people to take credit for what just happened.

Hans: So I would, I would ask people to consider if your people are succeeding and they're not talking about you, it's a good thing. That's

Bill: yes. Yes, yes, yes. Love that. Hans, if there are leaders out there that would like to be led or supported by you, how, what do you want them to know about how you might be able to help them and where they might be able to find you?

Marty: Actually, just before, one second before you do that. Yes. I know the exact quote that you're referring because it is the first line of my book that comes out in May. Don't mind. I'll read it and then we'll ask that. That's

Hans: great. That's great. You like that little time for your book. Marty. You're welcome.

Marty: Thank you. This was loud to 6, 000 years ago before Christ. Before all of the Abrahamic religions, and he said, fail to honor people. They fail to honor you, but have a good leader who talks little when his work is done. His aim fulfilled. They will all say we did this ourselves.

Bill: Beautiful. Wow. What just happened? What's the title of your book, Marty? Leadership as relation. Beautiful. We could science of heart lead leadership.

Bill: We could not have scripted that. That

Hans: was, that was amazing. So I'm happy to chat with anyone who wants to talk about this or any other challenge that they've got going on.

Hans: I'm available at my website.Ontoco.com, O N T O C O. com. I'm Hans Phillips on LinkedIn. And I'm completely enamored with the possibility of every human being on the planet and just love this stuff, feel free to be

Bill: in touch. Hans, thanks for being our guest and thanks for being in my life and all the, you've been just such a supportive member of my fan club for practically since I first met you.

Bill: And I so appreciate that. Thank you. My pleasure, Bill.

Marty: When I think of your name, I just see a big heart. You've got such a big heart for us all. Thank you for that.

Hans: Thank you both.

Bill: All right. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks, Hans. Thanks, Marty.