Self and Parts

Marty: Welcome everybody to the True You Podcast with my guest host Bill Tierney, who is a IFS coach and results coach. with me Martin executive leadership coach. And this is just our second episode of this new podcast and, um. Our topic for today is a basic one, but a very important one with a lot of implications. wanna talk about the difference between the different parts of us, which we often talk about and relate to, how to be with them and, and them and put them to bed, but also the difference between those parts and the true you. Because the underlying claim is that there is a true you that can comfort tend to in some way these parts. But what's the difference between it and just another part, so I know that this is basic distinction in IFS. What is the IFS position on this question?

Bill: I am gonna need to answer what my position is rather than what, what the IFS position is because. It seems like I view it maybe slightly differently than than others do. Maybe not. Maybe others see it as I do. So let me just speak from how I understand it and, and then, um, let those who are new to IFS do their own research and determine for themselves what that difference is. So in the IFS model, the true U is referred to as self with a capital S. And then parts are not self and self is not a part and this is really, well, it might feel like it's splitting hairs to some. I think this is a really important distinction. I don't personally believe that there is a separate self that I am. Give and, and then in contrast that I don't have parts that I'm not, parts are part of parts of me. So in, in, in that way, they are me and, and self. I, I see as potential in every single part that I have

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: not as a separate energy or entity within, within me.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: true core me self is, is only, can only be expressed through my parts. Now, that's my personal belief in other IFS practitioners may differ on that, but to the point that you're bringing up about what's the difference between the true you and the parts of of you. Now we can start breaking that down, I believe. I, I, I like to think, and I got this from Bonnie Weiss who created the self therapy workbook. Jay Early created a series of books that are called Self Therapy and she created the Self Therapy workbook, Bonnie Weiss did. And in that book, she has these wonderful illustrations that helped me early on when I was first beginning to try to wrap my mind around what. What is the Internal Family systems model and how does it work? And apparently I'm a visual learner because I, I really enjoyed these illustrations that she has in her workbook, and I think I've talked about this before in the Leadership coaching podcast, but if you didn't see that, if you, if you haven't seen her book or if you didn't see that episode of the podcast where I believe we actually showed it on the screen. Imagine there is a just a chair, a cushioned chair, and standing and stomping in that chair as a young child. The chair, represents the seat of consciousness, and the young tantruming child represents a part that has become activated by some circumstance in life. And the thing that Bonnie is trying to point out with this illustration is that when a, an activated part that's still reacting to an unresolved incomplete past is, has taken over our consciousness, then we think like that part, that might be a 2-year-old tantruming part of me that influences how I think. Influences the emotions I experience. I influences what I might be tempted to do or say and, and in fact, even what I do or say under the influence of that part, if I'm not consciously aware that that's what's happening.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Being consciously aware that that's what's happening is the beginning of bringing self energy or the true you into the room with that tantruming child.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So her illustrations go on. If you look at that first illustration that Tantruming child is stomping in that chair, well, there's just behind the chair is a young woman, a young adult woman. Looks like she's probably in her twenties, and in the next illustration, the child is tantrum tantruming still, but not in the chair. Now the young woman is sitting in the chair. In other words, she has regained the seat of consciousness.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, and from her self-led true you perspective, she's able to be detached from observe and be with the tantruming child part of herself.

Marty: Mm.

Bill: The child's not running her consciousness, not running her perspective, thoughts, feelings, or uh, or behavior. She's actually able to tend to that, that part of herself.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: stop talking for a minute as you're listening, is how does that illustration work for you as I describe it that way?

Marty: Well, the question that it raises for me is, um, about that seat,

Bill: Yes.

Marty: right? Um, it seems like we need that, that seat is an important part of the illustration, and yes, we want her to sit in it. But, um, it's a container. And, that, that for me is very important in my understanding of the true me. That there's, that there is this loving, this, you know, like a, the big lovings easy chair

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: that any part can come and sit in and. You know, be a part of the self or, or you know, realize the self it itself as self. Right. And that seems like a key piece because if we, if it's just all these different parts have some potential, well then that potential is gonna be different with each of the parts.

Bill: That's right.

Marty: So that chair is the central place. And so I think that, that what's important and, and you said this is that it's not separate, like it is the place, the, it is the space. Maybe the self is just space in which, a loving space in which. Self lives. And and I think that for me, that's a key piece. It's not separate, but it is distinct. It is different. It's not separate, but it is different from the parts.

Bill: I see it slightly differently than the way you just described. The seat represents consciousness, and consciousness is neutral,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so it's neither loving or hateful. It's not, it's it, it doesn't have judgements, it doesn't have, it's not impressed. It doesn't even have resources other than, as you say, a space that would be represented by the chair

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: where, where the focus of consciousness can be pointed and collects data, let's just say, or information based on feedback from the internal and external worlds.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So whoever's sitting in that seat there, when I say the potential of self in a part, whoever, whatever part is sitting in that seat, what determines whether, whether or not they're self-led is not the seat itself, but whether that part, uh, let's say it this way, is acclimated to the present moment or the past

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: to, to the present. Where, where through its eyes, through the parts, through the eyes of this particular part, that sitting in the seat of consciousness,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: uh, what's reflected back accurately portrays reality as it, as it's unfolding in this moment

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: compared to what the parts seized through its eyes, reflecting back a distorted sense of what's happening because it's still seeing through the lens of the past.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, the, one of the things that, that. Suggests to me as I think about what that, you know, what and feel into what that would mean if it feels kind of like the universe, right? The universe is that neutral place where all of these things happen. You know,

Bill: Right.

Marty: compassionate things and and cruel things. They're all part of the universe, like, you know. Glorious things and terrible things all contained in the universe. And so that would suggest that the self is like, the universe like when we could really contain it all? Um, and that raises a question for me then, like is there a kind of love that is just not opposed to, not the opposite of hate? I. Because we want, we want, we want the, like you said, the self contains both, right? There are parts that are hateful and parts that are loving, but then I, I'm just gonna say it all right. I want the universe to, I want to think that the universe itself, the self is. Super loving. Like it can, it's loving in that it contains lovely things and hateful things, but that it's, there's this higher order kind of love and this is the kind of love that gets talked about in most spiritual. That's where I'm coming from. Most spiritual schools of thought, you know, it's. Yeah, that, you know, God sends floods and hurricanes as well as, you know, beautiful flowers and rainbows, that it's, all of it is th self and, and so perhaps what I'm learning is that I should not associate God with the self.

Bill: I don't know. So let's, let's, let's simplify it back down to what, what I understand through the IFS model, which, which is really practical. Um, and attaching God to self can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Marty: yes.

Bill: think about those that have experienced religious trauma. If we attach God to self and that religious trauma still is unresolved and unhealed now self is, is, takes on a completely different idea than, than the self of someone like you who, who doesn't seem to have that.

Marty: as you put it, that is a, that is a It's traumatized. So that's not the self.

Bill: Well, now you're, you're speaking is it part and self or separate? And, and that's what I, what I'm telling you is that, uh, I don't believe there is a separation.

Marty: they're separate, I'm just saying that they're distinct. Right. Because

Bill: that's, and that is the argument. That's the, that's the argument that I get into with the people that practice IFS often is, uh. Is that there's a distinct difference between self and apart.

Marty: Well, I mean the, just to go back and maybe put it in a different way, it seemed to me that that would leave us with no seat. That

Bill: The,

Marty: there would just be this part's potential and this part's potential, and that part's potential, but no seat.

Bill: I guess I'm not tracking why, why you withdraw that conclusion.

Marty: because that's the way you, that's, thought maybe I misunderstood the way you were saying it, but that's what I understood you to say.

Bill: Hmm. Okay. Well let's go, let's go back to how do you distinguish between a part that's self-led and a part that's burden led now? That's, that's really the distinction. I believe that that's, that matters. Uh, what I say to my clients, and this is the way I think about it for myself as well, is that, that we all need our parts to, to survive, to, to even operate in the physical plane.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Without my parts, I wouldn't know my name, my birthday, or where I lived.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I, I wouldn't remember to go to the grocery store. Uh, I wouldn't know whose clothes I was putting on. My parts helped me operate. In the, if I put clothes on at all, operate in the, in the material plane.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, I believe, I believe that the, that self energy is spiritual in nature. You, you can't open somebody up and find self energy anywhere. You can't, you can't actually, I don't think maybe somebody's figured out how to do this yet, but I don't, I don't think there's a way to measure self-energy. But I can feel it. I can feel, yeah. Right, right. Yeah. So maybe there's actually a, a way to, to, to measure it scientifically as well. But yeah, I can feel the difference between being self-led and being led by a part that is concerned and worried about what's going on in my life in this present moment.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'm not, and I'm not saying there aren't times to be concerned and worried there are. Actual threats that that take place and we need to be able to respond to them. But burden parts, parts that are still acting, uh, from the motivation to solve a problem that actually no longer exists, something that happened 2050 years ago. Those are the parts that when they sit in that seat of consciousness, provided a distorted lens and have us reacting to current life as if it's still the past.

Marty: That's great. Yeah, no, the distinction between what that. Feels like inside when we know we're self-led versus led by an incomplete part.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: That that is clear to me. And what I am pointing to is a further distinction, which is that between being self-led and being the lead.

Bill: Say more. I'm not tracking as well as I'd like to be, to be the, the difference between being self-led and being the lead.

Marty: Yeah. Leading. Leading.

Bill: Oh, oh. And leading. Being self-led and leading.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bill: see.

Marty: Yeah. There's that. That I, I mean, I have that experience where it's kind of like I. The universe or, or intuition or something from outside and who I'm being are one in that moment, and I'm, I'm leading. I'm not just led by self, but I am leading. that, that feels different from being led by something right. And so that, and that, so that is the self that I am, the, the experience of which I've had. And I'm, I'm questioning if, if that's different. That's, that's like being the seat in the way, in the way we were talking about it before. It's like, oh, I can sit in myself and lead as opposed to. Which is being self-led, which is, you know, it, it's, it sounds like a very subtle distinction, but I think it makes the difference between there being, you know, like this overarching kind of love versus just like loving versus hate. I think there's, there's something that in that, in encapsulate or in incorporates, includes both. Loving and hating and, and it's neutral, like you said, but I, I, I think of it as a higher kind of love that the self possesses.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, here's how I understand what you just said. Uh, and this may not reflect back what you meant. But, so let's just see how close we are. Uh, I, I'm hearing there are parts of me that can be loving

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and those parts, uh, can be loving because they're self-led, or those parts can be loving because loving's a great strategy to get what we want.

Marty: That's true too. Yeah.

Bill: So I can, in other words, I can, I can perform love

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: with an agenda to get what it is that I want to avoid. What I don't want. Or I can, my state of being can be just, uh, loving and, and in that state, that's evidence that I'm being self-led. And if while I'm being self-led and experiencing, uh, the, the state of love being loving

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I'm leading, that's gonna be far more effective and far more attractive to those that might follow than someone that's performing, being loving as a strategy to be a good leader.

Marty: For sure. For sure.

Bill: Now what I just said. How close does that come to what you meant?

Marty: Oh, I think it sheds light on, on a light that I wasn't even seeing on what I meant.

Bill: Oh.

Marty: I, I, yeah, I think it's good. Yeah, I think the, the reason why, just to keep this, um, practical, 'cause, I mean, what's the point otherwise, right? I don't, I don't wanna be esoteric or abstract. Is there's a bottom that I feel otherwise, and, and maybe that's the, the truth is that there is no bottom, you know, to, the experience of the south. It, it just, there, there are just. Selves parts of self. Parts of self and my way of thinking has been influenced to, to want to know that there's, there is an experience that I have that is. The bottom like that. That's right. That's true. Always. And, and you can rely on, you can get there and you can rely on it. And

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: it's, it might be fleeting, the experience, but there's a difference between that and, and just, um, you know, a fix or a problem, uh, solved

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: you know, a, a temporary that, that, and there's nothing but those, those temporaries.

Bill: Right.

Marty: I think part of the, the, difference is also one that, um, we find between discussions between Buddhists and, and of theological traditions, right? The Buddhist says there is no bottom, there are just, there are just these experience, these parts and so there, there, there is no bottom there. It is just fragmented ultimately. And the schools of the theological schools say, well, there is something that contains all of those, that's what we mean by the self.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: So that's, that's very much influencing how I'm participating in this conversation.

Bill: From the former, from the more of the Buddhist view than the, than Oh, the, the latter.

Marty: The latter.

Bill: I see. Okay. Okay. When you say, let's, let's keep this practical, uh, let, love that idea. I love examples of, of how under the influence of a burdened part, I'm, I'm gonna react differently. To whatever's coming my way in life. Then if my parts are all that are reacting, are all self-led

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and there's a lot of factors that come into why I would show up as self-led or, or from a burden. For example, if, if I have diminished capacity because I don't have enough sleep, because I haven't got good nutrition. Because I haven't been moving my body around enough because I've had a recent loss. I mean, there's a million reasons why my, my capacity would be reduced.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And typically what uses up my capacity is the management of my internal world. If my parts are busy managing my internal world, then they don't have a lot of capacity left to be able to, uh, just relax and allow self to self-led parts to respond.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: next thing that comes along that needs some sort of re response.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: So, uh, uh, this morning, uh, before you and I joined together to record this, uh, I was working on some writing and, uh, in the writing I had one part that, that continued to rise up and kind of shout for my attention and used going back to the seat of consciousness. That image from Bonnie Weiss's workbook. It's as if this, this frustrated and impatient part insisted on putting himself in that seat of consciousness and influencing my access to inspiration as I wrote. And so I finally had to slow down enough and pause, and this is something that I've been talking to my clients quite a bit about lately, is that the practical application of the IFS model is at least twofold. One. One. One like parallel path would be that we want to notice when our parts are activated and having an influence on us that's not helpful.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And then 10 tend to that part by pausing, acknowledging the influence, and getting curious with the part. Now we don't always have time to do that at the speed of life.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: just pausing long enough to say to the part, Hey, I see you and I see that you've got a concern and that you want some, have some input here.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: can take five minutes right now. Tell me part, what is it that you're concerned about? What is it you want me to know and understand that has you continuing to show up and then just pausing for three, four minutes and just waiting for an answer and, and when that happens, sometimes a memory will come up. Uh, or sometimes it'll be just as clear as can be a billboard flashes, flashes before my eyes that says, here's what I want you to know.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And then if I can just address that concern, whatever that is, if that, then the part can relax. And when it relaxes, and this seems to be a universal, universal truth that I'm finding using the IFS model, is that when my concerned parts relax because I've addressed those concerns.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: Then I now have access to that self energy again, inspiration. For example, what I'm writing,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: so there's a, there's a practical application right there.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. That relaxed place in the middle, I mean, that is, that is that I relate to very, that resonates very strongly for me. Um, I, I'm going to make an analogy to bring out another practical level of this. Um, if I could. It's, it, it was in the design of our governmental system that there be the executive branch, the, the branch that executes the law.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: The legislative branch, the, the branch that makes the law to be executed. And then the, the justice system, right? The judicial branch and, and the judicial branch decides in cases that aren't clear whether the law applies to the ex to a particular execution of the law. we need those three. To bring that still moment into view, right? If it's, if it, if, if every, every execution is just as equal, like, you know, you might, you might think it's okay to do that, but I don't. But we have no way of deciding who's right. then we live in a chaos, right? And so that's why the system was designed the way it is. And so in, you know, my handling of my parts. You know, if, if, if they're all, you know, they're all, they're all just of the equal value, um, I, it feels chaotic to me. Like I, I, I could excuse myself here. I could say, oh, that's just the way that part is. You know, I could do this, then I'm living a chaotic life and I don't really know. You know how to apply my, you know, my values or, um, how to execute in a particular case. And so the, the i, I am for this distinction between parts and self, I. As you, because I think the, the, the self is kind of like the judicial branch. It's the one, it's the one that doesn't change, but decides the application of value

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: particular

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: that just, like it gives me a place to come home to, to know like, you know, that that was the right choice as opposed to. Just in, you know, another part that we had to give credence to or, you know, I had to appreciate in some way.

Bill: Very well said. I, I really enjoyed and appreciated you laying that out that way. Uh, and, and yet even in. It's, , the judicial function that determines this is, this is what we're about, this is, these are our values, whatever that is. A lot of that can be influenced by those parts of us that have experienced whatever we've experienced to get us to this point. Right now,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: parts often will concern themselves with our survival, that that's their, their primary focus.

Marty: purpose. Yeah.

Bill: Without them, the self energy that would have no place to manifest because there would be no physical body to manifest it. So our parts, which are also of the mind rather than of the body, uh, help us in to, in, in, in deciding what's best to do. It's just that when they get stuck with outdated information, the decisions that they make, uh. Are misaligned and, and maladaptive.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: So when there are parts of us that are more healed, more self-led, more current than these other parts that are still, that are still maladaptive and misaligned,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: if we can, if we can somehow enlist and enroll those parts of ourselves that are self-led to help the parts of ourselves that still need healing. It's, that is the process that, that IFS employs to heal and update parts so that we, we can become more and more aligned with current reality. And, and something that you said also pointed to a fear or concern that occasionally I experience and I know that my clients do as well. And that is that life is too overwhelming. How in the world am I ever gonna solve the pro the problems that I'm faced with today? And, you know, we could think of 30 examples in 30 seconds probably of, of how many overwhelming experiences any of us might be faced with. What I've learned is that it's, it's the wisdom that comes from the self energy that inspires and informs our response to those overwhelming experiences when the parts of us that are overwhelmed are somehow. Reassure that they can, they can actually relax and step back and allow that wisdom from self to step in and, and offer that leadership and that guidance. That's what we're after. That's what we're, that's what we are trying to accomplish in the IFS model is to help more and more and more of our parts trust and have experiences, consistent experiences with self energy

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: that they know that they're not alone. And, and the, the fact that they're overwhelmed only means that they're overwhelmed. It doesn't mean that the situation itself is overwhelming and that we don't know what to do with it.

Marty: Right, right. Which reminds me, by the way, of the loving parent.

Bill: Guidebook, huh? Mm-hmm.

Marty: in, in a CA,

Bill: Yes.

Marty: which is a, a 12 step program that I'm, that I'm in adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. And, um, that's, you know, that's that super love that I'm talking

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: you know, the, the loving parent. Recognizes times when the, child in, or the children inside, or the family members inside are being loving and when they're being hated, hateful, loves them unconditionally.

Bill: Yes, yes. When someone comes into IFS therapy or an goes to get supported by an IFS trained practitioner.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And they don't know anything yet about the internal family systems model, and they certainly don't know how to use it and apply it to themselves. They need help. So the, the, the practitioner or the therapist is gonna be the guide for a while, and, and they're, and they're gonna be do, doing two things with that client. They're going to be helping the client. Access their parts by recognizing them, recognize the influence of parts, and then also by gradually and eventually connecting with those parts, and then getting information from the parts so that the parts can be understood and appreciated.

Marty: Uh

Bill: So that's one thing that the therapist or practitioner will do with a client while at the same time modeling so that the client can learn how to do that for themselves.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: One of the great things about the IFS model is that this is a model that we not only can, but must really if we're, if we're gonna heal and if we're gonna transform, it's on us individually to do whatever work is necessary to organize our internal world so that we can continuously heal,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: more and more and more and more over time, even when we don't have a trained practitioner in front of us showing us how to do it.

Marty: I see.

Bill: So when, when someone comes in to IFS therapy or coaching, if they don't have a lot of access to self energy, they, they need to borrow the self energy of the practitioner

Marty: I see.

Bill: long enough to, to develop self energy for themselves.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: A, a first session might look like the exploration, for example, of a critical part. So client shows up to the first session and the, the coach hears, or practitioner, or therapist hears the client speaking from a critical part that says, you know, that's me. That's me. You can count on me to be late. I don't care how many times, how early I leave, I'm always gonna be late. I don't know what it is. There's something wrong with me, basically there. So the, the therapist, the client, or the practitioner's listening, the coach is listening for that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: a part. That is a part that, that wants to somehow communicate something, to accomplish something

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and what's really cool to me as a coach is that I don't have to figure any of that out. I notice it and then I feed it back to the client and say, I'm noticing

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that I'm hearing what you're saying is that that is you, that you're someone who is late and I'm wondering. If you'd be interested in getting to know the part of you that thinks that that's true and influences you to believe it,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: try to convince me of it,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and then in, in that whatever remains in the session, 45, 50 minutes in the session, and exploration of that part might reveal that that critical part is so afraid that others are going to criticize the my client that it tries to beat. Everybody else to the punch

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: criticize my clients so that they can correct themselves

Marty: Right?

Bill: they give anything to be criticized.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And in, and in 45 or 50 minutes, if the client's open to it, they can recognize and realize, oh, this part is doing everything it knows how to do. It's completely unresourced. It has no other method other than to criticize me. And we might've even discovered Where did, where did this part learn how to be critical? Oh, I had a critical uncle. And that uncle was, every time I saw him, he was critical. So I was always very careful around him not to make any mistakes or take any risks. This part must have thought that, that, let's ask the part. Yep. The part says, yep. That's where I learned it. Uncle Joe. Uncle Joe taught me how to be critical and, but look, look at how much I've protected. Yeah. Yeah. He protected me. You have protected me. Thank you very much. And are you interested in learning a new way

Marty: Mm-hmm. The, the recognizing, the getting to know the part, the recognizing that, that it has an origin and a purpose and all of that, and that it's ultimately, you know, trying to do some good for me,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: part, that's the self, right?

Bill: Th that actually requires this, the self energy to be able to do that. And interestingly, shifting, like that was a good example of borrowing the self energy of the coach or the practitioner who is curious, bringing self energized curiosity. And as the, the practitioner or coach provides that, then that kind of wakes up the potential. In the parts of, oh, I can do that too, can't I? I, I'm not accustomed to being curious. I'm more accustomed to being judgmental. But yeah, this is, I kinda like how this feels. Let's try this. Yeah. I can be curious. Let's see if I can learn something about myself and about my other, my fellow parts, my counterparts.

Marty: Beautiful. Beautiful.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that just continues and builds

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: first part that got. Uh, the attention, the loving, compassionate, curious, self energized curiosity in that first session now might become the very first ambassador of self energy for the rest of the system

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and may just jump on its speed with its flag and go marching through the in inward environment, uh, and say, Hey, something cool's happening here.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: want some of this,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: and the whole system can begin to shift in that way. Self-energy. So notice as I shared that example, not once did I refer to a separate self that came in and rescued or saved the day.

Marty: no, I, that it was separate.

Bill: Oh, I know, I know. I'm, I'm just really re reemphasizing the point that I was making earlier that,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: because I guess I have this ongoing internal. Argument happening. Like, gosh, I read this in the, in the IS material and I'm, I listen to some of the IFS trainers and they're talking about self as if it's a separate entity or sep,

Marty: Well, I

Bill: separate thing.

Marty: my impression, and I might be way off here, is that we have a hard time distinguishing without making separate, like how could it be distinct and not be separate? Will. There, there. I think that's entirely possible. You know, I don't think there's a contradiction there. And that's, that's one of the things that I consider of the nature of the self is that it, it includes all con all and so it includes what might seem contradictory, you know, to a, to a rational part of us. It would seem contradictory. Well, how could it be distinct and not be separate? Well, I think that's entirely possible.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: Like, like like two people fighting for the same cause, but they're distinct people.

Bill: Well, and they might be using two distinct strategies to fight for that same cause, which is, which is a great. Great analogy, because that's exactly what's happening in the internal world.

Marty: Right. Exactly.

Bill: Often protectors are taking on dramatically different strategies to accomplish exactly the same thing. You might have one part that's a critic to protect, an exiled part that's holding the tender, vulnerable, painful, scary, hurtful stuff, energy, and, and, and so that critic is trying to manage all of that. And then there's a polarized part. That once, uh, once the parts had just completely, uh, be out there and prove to everybody just about how lovable they are in some way.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And now they're at odds. They're completely at odds. Those two parts

Marty: This

Bill: I.

Marty: me back to, you know, the, the theological traditions versus the, because there were a lot of people in my upbringing who rejected Christianity they couldn't see how God could be distinct from us, and yet not separate and, you know.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: That's

Bill: Yes.

Marty: that's that, it's the, I think it's the exact same issue,

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a mystery. It, it, it occurs as a mystery.

Marty: why you get people saying, well, I, I don't believe that the, you know, God's up there in heaven looking down on us, making judgements on us. It's like, well, I don't either. Oh, well then you don't believe in God. No, I do. He's distinct, but not separate.

Bill: Now this is, this is not what you're saying right now at all, but what you said reminds me of this, and I, and it's worth, worth mentioning, uh, in one of my scrolling sessions on my iPhone, as I was just kind of at the end of my day just trying to deaden my mind. I ran across a video of an interview with Viktor Frankl and the, the, the interviewer asked Victor, do you believe in God

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: first? He first, he said, did you believe in God when you were in the concentration camp? And he said, yes, I did.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And now, do you believe in God all these years later? No. Oh, what happened? Oh, I know God. No need to believe anymore.

Marty: I see. Awesome.

Bill: I thought that was one of the coolest things I've ever, ever heard.

Marty: That's beautiful.

Bill: Well, uh, I love that we've been talking about this today and kind of the scattered and kind of chaotic way that we have. We didn't have an outline and we just kind of followed, let the conversation dictate where we went next. And I want to extend an invitation. Uh, even a, a request to our listeners that if this conversation has, um, raised questions for you, if you would've been part of this conversation and had more to say that, that we didn't cover today and that you'd like to hear us talk about, please email either me or Marty. You'll find our email addresses in show notes if you have questions you'd like us to address. I don't know that we have any of the answers. Both of us are coaches, so we both have a lot of questions ourselves, but, but we certainly will discuss, uh, your suggestions of things that you'd like to talk about, whether it's related to the IFS model or any other aspect of the true you. Marty, anything else you wanna say before we say goodbye?

Marty: No, it was, it was, uh, it was good to be together.

Bill: I will see you in episode three.