Episode 60: Alone Time and Time with Others [00:00:00]

Marty: Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Coaching Podcast with me, Martin Kettlehead, and my associate, Bill Tierney. really glad to have you with us today. We're going to talk about a topic, um, That is something to consider here at the holidays, but also throughout the year and it's about the, the need that we have to be alone sometimes solitude and also the fact that was, you know, we're social creatures and we really can't get on for very long. Without other people. So what's the relationship with the between these two? [00:01:00] And, and, uh, what, how do we structure that? That's our topic.

Bill: And I'm thinking of the movie, what was it called, uh, with Tom Hanks on the island. Do you recall which one I'm talking about?

Marty: And he has the, the, that ball there

Bill: Wilson.

Marty: Wilson that he's talking to. Yes. I

Bill: Great.

Marty: say scavenger, but it's not scavenger. It's cast away.

Bill: That's the way, that's, what a great movie. Anyhow, that movie came to mind as you're talking about being alone and how, how hard it is to not have people around and yet how hard it is to have people around sometimes.

Marty: Right?

Bill: Especially.

Marty: Wasn't it 20th century? French philosopher Jean Paul Sartre who said, hell is other people.

Bill: You know, I can think of some other people that it would be hell to have to spend much time with. I don't know that I would generally across the board agree with him [00:02:00] though.

Marty: So I'm, so I'm asking, is there a, a way that, to structure that we're supposed to see like, Oh, you need 50, 50, that's it. You just need 50 percent of time by yourself. Or is there a formula or a structure or a strategy to this, or do we all just have to figure it out for ourselves? Um, what's, what's the healthy way to go about that?

Bill: This is a great question. I'm glad that we're approaching this from exploration rather than feeling the pressure of having to have an answer to that question. Because I don't know that my way. I can tell you what works for me. I'm sure that you could probably tell me what works for you and, and maybe that's a place to go to dive in is to start with what, what is a good measure of, of, uh, connection and disconnection. I don't know if you use those same words, but spending time with people and spending time alone.

Marty: Right,

Bill: I like a lot of [00:03:00] alone time. Um, but I also like connection. I mean, I, obviously I, I wouldn't be. able to be a coach if I didn't enjoy connection.

Marty: right, right.

Bill: And so what's the ratio of that? If I had to guess, I would say I need at least 20 percent alone time. In my waking hours, I need to be alone about one hour out of every five. Maybe 10, 12 minutes out of every hour. That's enough for me to kind of come back together into and maybe collect my disparate parts that have gone off in different directions to try to please other people or to, to, um, to take that attention to tending, to caring for providing my services to other people or interacting and collaborating with other people.

Marty: So you're pointing to something really important here. Um, by the way, I think it might be about the same for me [00:04:00] now that you stated it in such bold terms. I kind of I went. I think that is about what I do too, but what you're pointing at is that there's a, you said, I need this much solitude in order to be able to write with other people. So, what's, what is the being on your alone? What do you get from that? Provides for being with people,

Bill: I think it recharges my batteries.

Marty: which means what does it like you, you alluded earlier to the, the, the parts might need tending to, or right. Is that recharge your batteries when you tend to your parts?

Bill: When I, Yeah, I like the phrase tending to parts. However, to me, what that means is bringing specific attention to [00:05:00] individual parts to understand them better or even to build relationship with them so as to have more internal self leadership. And I don't do that in a conscious way. Very often. I'll admit that. You're probably only going to find me doing that if I have been suffering to the point where I can't tolerate the suffering anymore. Other than that, it feels like I've got enough internal harmony and balance that I'm kind of dancing with my parts all the time, whether I'm with people or not, but often if I'm with people and there's an ex more expenditure of energy and less return, then I need some alone time to recharge my batteries.

Marty: So, so there's this, there's an energy issue and then there's this being self led.

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: Those are two criteria that I'm just hearing in, in your speaking. One has to do with an energy level [00:06:00] and one is you want to be self, like you said, playing with the parts all the time, but, but, but self led, right?

Bill: Yes. Yes. And, and there is definitely a correlation Self leadership and self energy and personal power and capacity. All of those are interrelated and indicators. Like, how do I know if I have self leadership? Uh, well, it's going to change my experience of life

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: because I'm going to have access to resources that without self leadership, I don't have.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: resources such as, um, you know, patients, the ability to be patient or to have an experience that otherwise might require patients might be a better way to say that to be compassionate. And this is another topic that we considered for today is, you know, showing up with compassion and, uh, what, uh, and contested. It was the word I used uncontested compassion, where I don't have to try to be compassionate. [00:07:00] I just show up in that state. Um, so that also would be an indication of that I'm, that I'm actually experiencing self leadership rather than the leadership of, of, um, parts of me that have gotten activated and, and, and concerned about what's happening in my life.

Marty: I mean, the reason, the reason I'm asking it this way is because I mean, you can go off and be by yourself, but not be creating, you know, um, not be self led. You could be, you could spend all of that solitude time being led by your, you know,

Bill: Oh,

Marty: and, you know, the parts that are upset. And so you could, you could. So yeah. Yeah. When we are, when we have time to be in solitude, the key it sounds to me is to tap into the [00:08:00] self.

Bill: Well, the key to having that be energizing, the key to having that be rewarding and fulfilling to have time alone.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Yeah, would be, would be to be able to tap into self.

Marty: Right.

Bill: the, maybe one of the. determinants of the amount of self time alone and the amount of time I need with other people is what is happening in my time alone and what is happening in my time with other people.

Marty: Right. I mean, it seems like if you were, if you were hanging out with the right kind of people, there would be, you know, a feedback loop, a mute, you know, I'm usually, feedback loops so that those would be the kind of people, ideally, that would remind you of yourself, take you back to yourself, not be a, you know, depleting your capacity.

Bill: By putting pressure on you to [00:09:00] be any different than you are, for example.

Marty: Right,

Bill: depleting.

Marty: Mm

Bill: If I'm in the presence of somebody that has expectations and making it clear that I'm not meeting up to their expectations

Marty: hmm.

Bill: and that they're doing or saying things that, that apply more and more pressure, that's going to deplete me. It's going to, it's going to shift me back into kind of a survival mode. Like I, how do I survive this experience?

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: Whereas I'm with people who seem to be just really accepting exactly who I am without any agenda or evidence of an agenda that they're trying to get me to change. That's going to generate more energy. I'm going to be more energized. I'm going to want to spend more time with them. And when I do end up then spending time alone, my parts are going to be so relaxed and so validated. And so. Um, willing to allow self leadership that that too will be energizing

Marty: Right.

Bill: and pretty clear.

Marty: And I bet I bet if you did a [00:10:00] study, well, I shouldn't bet on it, but I would say a good study would be to, you know, monitor these factors like when the, when you're alone, are you tapping into self? Are you? Tending to parts or meditating or whatever, whatever, you know, appropriate method there is to, to get back to being self led,

Bill: Yes,

Marty: or are you spinning around, you know, in, in those places that aren't that are taking you away from your, your essence.

Bill: exactly

Marty: And, and then, you know, if, you know, I would imagine like some, something like like if you watch a great teacher who's got lots of people around him or herself all the time, but, know, is using that as an opportunity to remind [00:11:00] not only her students, but herself of the self. Right. And, and reposition oneself in that place, then you're not going to need extra downtime. Probably you're getting it all the time.

Bill: right. Yep. Much like a savings account or checking account. You put money in, you put enough money in. And you've got operating capital. If you take too much of it out, you're in crisis.

Marty: Yeah. Like I noticed in my own routine, um, that if I exercise first and then meditate. going to work I have a very, a much more self led experience of the, of my coaching. I, what I used to do was, um, meditate first thing, you know, like get out of bed and your head starts getting filled, [00:12:00] meditate. And then I would go to the gym. Now I'm starting to get a little bit of, you know, the influence of the worldly world, right? Okay. And then by the time I got home to, to do my work, I was already, you know, mired in it all. So I switched that so that I exercise first and that starts the meditative process. And then I did, and then I start working and that's working much better. But to your point about five hours, usually in, right? After lunch that I need to, I need to just take at least another 20, maybe 30, 40 minutes to do another meditation and, and clear. So that's that fits your, your 5 hour theory.

Bill: Yeah, so you and I are somewhat aligned there, it sounds like. Now, what are the factors? I want to, if you don't mind, I'd kind of like to go in the direction of exploring the factors that would [00:13:00] contribute to a need for hanging around more people, and or a need to hang, to be alone. You know, the obvious ones are if I feel depleted by being around people, I'm going to want some alone time so I can restore.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: But then if I feel like, um, I'm not like I need a connection, if I have a need for a connection and of course I'm not able to experience that alone, I shouldn't say of course I was thinking earlier how given that I'm aware that I'm made up of these parts that seem to have their subpersonalities that seem to have their own lives. Their own opinions, their own emotions, their own agendas, and their own histories. Am I ever actually alone? Even, even if this body doesn't have other bodies anywhere near it in proximity. So there's that. And, and that certainly, that whole arena right there is, is, points to a lot of different things that could indicate whether or not I want to be alone.[00:14:00] Or if I'd rather be around other people.

Marty: does it? Are you saying that to like to hang out with your parts is fulfilling in the same way that hanging out with people is?

Bill: Sometimes it feels like it is. Sometimes it doesn't feel like it's enough though.

Marty: I

Bill: And, and equally, sometimes hanging out with my parts is a pain in the butt.

Marty: mean, there's also the experience when when I have this experience. So maybe whatever, take it for what it's worth. But I don't, it's when I'm self led that I feel the least alone ever.

Bill: Yes, yes.

Marty: I'm, I'm con, I feel connected to everybody and everything.

Bill: Feeling alone and being alone, in this case, are not the same thing.

Marty: Right.

Bill: They're, at least they don't have to be feeling and being,

Marty: Well, and same thing with the social, you know, in a social context and feeling connected [00:15:00] are totally, different things.

Bill: well, they certainly can be. And I would say in, for the vast majority of my life up until somewhere in the ballpark of the last 10 years or so, I felt more alone with the evidence provided by being in social situations than I felt alone when I was actually alone,

Marty: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Bill: I think maybe because I was comparing myself to other people and it was creating suffering for me because I was usually coming up short as I compared myself. They were all better than I was. And, and so shame would get triggered. And that's really depleting. That really drains me.

Marty: Yeah, of course. course. Yeah. So wait, what was the point that you were just making? I,

Bill: think I began to move in the direction of that point, and I stopped myself by with this little sidebar thought of, well, even when I'm alone with my parts, the same dynamics kind [00:16:00] of, the same dynamics are there when I'm just alone with my parts, and even then I'm not alone. But when I'm with people, I believe it's just again, it's just back to how much am I putting out and how much am I getting back in? There needs to be a balance.

Marty: right. Well, the general question that you embarked on, like, I think one of one of the, Things that I, I think I've become more introverted than I used to be. Um, maybe that'll change again in life. But, um, one of the things that does draw me out is this work, right? Uh, and, and the need to do it, to pay the bills is another factor. It's not the main factor, but you know, I need to interact with people. Um, And do some coaching order for, you know, for, for them to either hire me or not, and that's what I do for a living. So that is, [00:17:00] you know, now, if you, if you're a, don't know, like a librarian or, uh, maybe a car repair. car repair, then, you know, that, that you might have that similar experience like, my work isn't demanding it of me, but I really want to get with some people now. Right now. The work is over.

Bill: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Reminds me of being in the grocery business long before I found a way to start loving people

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: people are just kind of getting in the way and a pain in the butt. I had a lot of stuff to get done. The grocery business was extremely demanding and and depending on the position I was in in the grocery store, there was a lot of pressure on me to get a whole lot done in eight hours.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: If people slowed me down to find out where the green beans were, it was, it slowed me down. And I, it was hard to like the person that was slowing me down and recognize that, oh, this person that's [00:18:00] slowing me down right now, they're the ones that are paying money through the check stand so that I can get paid. I didn't have that perspective at all.

Marty: Mm

Bill: My perspective was, you are in my way. Can we do this quick?

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that might have been a general thing. People were in the grocery business because now at least, you know, Around here, every grocery store, you could ask the most trivial question they don't say aisle five or, or, you know, it's on the other sides, they walk you there,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: the, the, the cheapo grocery stores and the, and the nice ones, both. like a policy now,

Bill: Hmm. Interesting.

Marty: the client to the answer to their question. And that's, it didn't used to be that when I was young, but it is now,

Bill: Boy, I didn't do that. That took way too much time. Now, once I started liking people that changed, I wanted to spend more time with them. You know, it wasn't that I, that I wasn't [00:19:00] interested in being productive, but a couple of things happened there. One, the longer I was in the grocery business, the better I got at doing things efficiently and less time it took to get the same amount of work done.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: I actually would learn how to work smarter than harder.

Marty: Of course.

Bill: And the other was that I began to see someone behind those eyeballs and that mouth that was making the request. I was actually seeing a person there and, and liking most, most of the time, liking what I saw, or at least curious about what I saw and what I was experiencing with that person.

Marty: What changed? You said once I started liking people, what does that like going

Bill: Oh man, I'll tell you, I. Well, I think what changed was I, I discovered the work of Byron Katie and one piece of work at a time began suffering less and less and less. And Because I had a tool now to accomplish that, to accomplish recognizing, number one, that I'm suffering and then two, number two, pulling out [00:20:00] the tool and applying it. And then three, having less suffering as a result of it. The Byron Cady Method helped me to begin to challenge longstanding beliefs and concepts that had been running my life for me. And the running of my life was just one series of crisis and drama and suffering. One piece after the other after the other that was life for me. So by doing that work by Finally getting my hands on the lever of my own life levers of my own life and being able to make a difference in how I felt from the inside out because I had less suffering I had more capacity to actually be with people and the risk that they might actually trigger more suffering for me.

Marty: So that sounds to me then, like, that's really the key to this, like the question as I posed at the beginning dissolves, like, once you see that what there really is the focus on is tending to your parts, [00:21:00]

Bill: Tending to my internal experience right and and whether it's parts work like like IFS uses it or constellation work or I mean there's a lot of different

Marty: Katie, but it's about, it's about. Not suffering.

Bill: yeah it's about lowering reducing suffering and increasing capacity.

Marty: And if you're feeling that, whether you're alone or with people, the point.

Bill: That is, that is. And then if I'm spending time with people, I'm enjoying it. If I'm spending time alone, I'm enjoying it. Either way.

Marty: So it's not, it's not about whether you're alone or people, it's about not suffering.

Bill: Now, if I, if when I'm [00:22:00] alone, I'm left with my own thoughts, and this is something that I heard around 12 step meetings as long as I went there, was that if you're alone with your own thoughts, you're in really bad company. And, and it was, it was always very funny. And yet it seemed to be accepted as the truth as well, like me alone in my own mind is I'm in danger. I'm in a dangerous neighborhood. And I need to get with other people. Now, that's no longer the case for me. It certainly was. When I first started going to 12 step meetings, I, I needed to recognize, they were trying to help me to recognize, boy, my thinking is my problem. And I didn't actually get that message until I discovered Byron and Katie. Yes, my thinking is my problem, because I was believing everything I thought, and every thought was based on fear, essentially.

Marty: So I just want to underline a very important point that you're making, is that it's not, it's not about that you were alone, that you were entertaining [00:23:00] your own thoughts, as opposed to, you could be, you could be alone, And doing the work of Byron Katie or, or meditating or something that doesn't get you involved and believing your own thoughts. That's the problem,

Bill: That's it. You know, just being in the present moment, and, and then engaged in whatever activities or behaviors, That I'm engaged in because I'm enjoying doing it because it's fun. It's entertaining. It's creative it's teaching me something something like that that really Gets me engaged

Marty: Right. Like if you're, if you're learning the Bach cello sonatas, that's very different from sitting around worrying or being anxious or shameful

Bill: right dissociating by watching Nothing wrong with netflix. I love it I've got apple tv right now and i'm watching a couple of wonderful series that I uh, I just look forward to it so much But the experience of watching a great show today compared to an experience of That's a dramatic difference. I, on that [00:24:00] couch, as long as I was engaged in that Netflix show that really had me going, uh, had me completely disconnecting from my own life and focusing in and projecting out onto that, the screen and, and the drama that was playing out on the TV, that, that was an escape from my internal state of despair and, or suffering some, some state of suffering. And I'm not saying I don't ever suffer anymore, but I don't suffer very much and I don't suffer very often. Mostly because I find it so terribly intolerable. I don't like it. And I, and I know that there's something I can do about it now.

Marty: And yet there are people listening who will say, gosh, I don't want to suffer, but I, that's where I keep finding myself now, short of calling Bill Tierney for some coaching, what's, what would you recommend do to create that? What did you call it? Internal hygiene? Uh

Bill: Yeah, that's another [00:25:00] topic we, we might, we thought we might discuss today. And here we are discussing it internally. Well, you said, how do I keep my internal world clean? I think that's the way you stated it. And I said, Oh, you're talking about internal hygiene,

Marty: huh. Uh huh. Uh

Bill: which is a phrase I've never heard before. I thought that's a good phrase for it though. Yeah. Uh, what would I recommend for people to kind of clean up their inner world? Yeah. For, I'll just tell you what I've done for me. Okay. It was the next book that got my attention at first. Like I was, I was reading Carlos Castaneda, which is kind of bizarre. But when I first got sober in 1982, somebody introduced me to Carlos Castaneda. Here's this guy taking these mescaline trips. Is that the right word? Uh, down in Mexico somewhere, and it's a, it's a fiction, fiction story, but it was fascinating to me. And so I was reading that, and then somebody introduced me to Richard Bach, and I started reading, reading his books, The Bridge Across Forever, and Jonathan Lemmings and the Seagull, and all those great books,

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: and Agmandino, which was, had a kind of a [00:26:00] Christian bent to it, and, uh, once I got addicted to, to the reading habit, It began, it began to work from the outside in on my thinking, and that was very, very helpful. I needed that. Anthony DeMello was another great place to go to read, and, uh, you know, and eventually I've got, I could probably, if I, if I could remember every single book I've read since 1982. First of all, I got sober November 15th, 1982. By December 31st, 1982, I'd read about 10 times more books than I'd read in my entire life up to that point.

Marty: not that interesting,

Bill: I was not a reader. I was not a reader. And now I, I've got four or five books going all the time

Marty: but

Bill: self help, some of them are fiction, some are nonfiction, some are memoir. I would say read because that's, if that works for you, it really works for me. Watch videos, get other outside information that updates what's happening inside.

Marty: we're not [00:27:00] talking about just going to YouTube and randomly watching what the algorithm shows you. We're talking about,

Bill: No,

Marty: are, these are readings and videos that are designed put you back in charge of your life.

Bill: exactly. You know, some people really like teachers like Deepak Chopra or, um, Michael Singer, uh, um, who, the power of now Eckhart Tolle. Uh, so all of that, that's outside information coming in and meeting up inside with information that completely argues with that. And I'm really Encourage people to do that, to challenge their own thinking, and then find a method for, for actively, proactively challenging your own thinking.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: Stop and open up, recognize that you probably don't understand everything. You don't know everything. Attend the Landmark Forum. I'm just telling you stuff that I did. That blew me [00:28:00] away.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: I love doing that. I just love, hated it, and I think I went three different times. I loved it because I didn't know what new thought bomb was going to come my way and explode what I thought I already knew.

Marty: Right?

Bill: I also didn't

Marty: It will do that to almost everything. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Bill: like the pressure that I needed to keep coming back and bring other people with me. I didn't like that much. So that was the hate part of it. Once I discovered Byron Katie, I began to invest in those kinds of experiences on the weekends. Go see Byron Katie. Go to one of her events.

Marty: And If they're the right kind of people, if you're engaged in the right kind of relation, you know, activity or conversation with them, sounds like people could be, you know, like, you're just there convincing yourself of the misery of life, you know, might be [00:29:00] time to just go out and be with some other people. You

Bill: Yes, absolutely.

Marty: well, who won't indulge that conversation, who will, who will indulge the greatness, the beauty of being alive.

Bill: You know, I was just telling Kathy this morning and this, and then this ties in. I couldn't agree more with you, Marty, with that last statement. About three years, I suppose, after I got sober, my wife and I moved to Hood River, Oregon, and I met a man there, Bob Stanfield, who was in the AA meetings where I attended, but he was also going to adult children of alcoholics meetings. And I'd never heard of that before

Marty: Mm

Bill: we, living in Hood River, we were just a mile and 15 minutes from Portland, Oregon, where we could just jump in my car, jump and head down the Columbia Gorge, be in Portland Saturday morning for an ACA meeting. And being around other people that grew up in highly dysfunctional families as I had, woke me [00:30:00] up to the awareness that what I experienced wasn't normal. What I experienced was abuse, neglect, and trauma. It was shocking to realize just how Handicapped. I was based on my traumatic childhood.

Marty: hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm.

Bill: At first, I wanted to discount what others were saying as they characterized what they were describing as trauma. You think that's bad. So I did a lot of comparing at first, like you're complaining about that. This is what happened to me. And pretty soon I realized, oh, shit. This really handicapped me. This really burdened me. No wonder life is so hard. So, it was very mind expanding to realize that, number one, I shouldn't put as much pressure on myself to be any better than I am at life than I am. Where was it modeled? And number two, here's a group of people that are trying to figure it out for themselves. Maybe we can do it together. So I want to highly recommend, also, if you can [00:31:00] find a group that had a similar experience to what you had, whether it's adult children of alcoholics in a 12 step meeting, or AA, or Al Anon, or any of those 12 step meetings. You know, it's got its ups and downs and its pros and cons, but being around other people who, like you, are interested in having a different experience of life, I strongly encourage you to check. And for some people, that's church, too.

Marty: Well, I was just going to say, you know, besides reading the right things and being with the right kind of people, another thing that occurs me, well, personal experience is offering service, you know, like that day that I spent at the food bank in Denver, explain it, but I came away from there really happy,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: you know, and when you sing in the choir at church,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: It's all, you're given your voice and

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: opening up to God or at least to the ensemble, right? And, and that [00:32:00] puts you in that place too. So, know, um, I know that it, it has actually worked for me sometimes when I'm in a really nasty mood. I will purposely look for somebody. To be of service to, you know, like if I have to go to the grocery store, I I'm consciously looking for, because I know that that will transform my sense of myself. If I can offer, you know, just be there for another person,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: get out of my head and, you know, into the, into the, the bigger picture. So those are, those are really good. The readings, the social, the socializing with people and then being of service.

Bill: I, I love what you're saying about being of service. That's another thing that 12 Step did for me. They, that, that service, uh, what are the three sides of the triangle, service, unity and recovery, right?

Marty: Right. Mm

Bill: I would have to say that, you know, um, the service and the [00:33:00] unity contribute to the recovery. Uh, and, um, I was pretty damn selfish, pretty damn stingy before I was introduced to, to the 12 step traditions and principles and steps. Um, and, and so it was really emphasized, you know, like a broken record over and over and over again that I heard at every single meeting with every single person I ever talked to that was part of 12 step, When I was early in recovery, they'd say, go to meetings, read the big book, get a sponsor and do service work.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And at that time, service work included cleaning ashtrays. Cause we, there was a lot of smoking going on in the meetings, making coffee. Um, maybe even when they trusted me with the key, they would have me unlock the room to set it, set up the room for, for a meeting and then eventually it turned into two people coming to me and saying, you know, I kind of like the way that you talk about your recovery. Would you be willing to sponsor me?

Marty: Mm,

Bill: um, I, I found that I really enjoyed that. And, and so even after I [00:34:00] stopped going to so many meetings, what I found was that built right into me was this muscle that had been exercised about giving and being of service.

Marty: mm-hmm

Bill: So that even to this day, um, here I am now 42 years sober, uh, but I, I have to, it feels like I have to do it somehow, not have to, like it's a sin if I don't have to, because I, I need it for myself. I need to give something away of service without exchange for something in return, because what I'm getting in return is a sense of value. I, I, and it's kind of tricky. It's not really, I did this so I have value. It's, I gave this and it demonstrates that I have something of value to give.

Marty: Right, right. Yes. It's, it's, it's an alchemy that happens. It's hard to explain, but you, when you do it, you, you, you have the, that experience. And just going back to Landmark for a second, I mean. Part [00:35:00] what they go to work on at first is your thoughts, right? Clearing that so that you're not suffering. You're not generating those misery causing. there is mental hygiene then, you know, What shows up is, well, I want, you know, I wanna be there for other, it, it, it's just like, it shows up. And that's when they say, well then, you know, they use that for marketing purposes. What I don't think is a bad thing, but it can get obnoxious if it's not done right. I'm a great example. I was just, you know, totally wrapped up in myself, intellectual in the academy, and then I did the Landmark Forum, and my life became about being, being there for others as a coach. It just, you know, so much, not everything of course, I've still got my problems, but, or opportunities to grow, to put it that way. Um, but, So much [00:36:00] got completed in my head through the work at Landmark I just, I took on a very different career, one that is about being there for others.

Bill: That's right. Yep. It's amazing. It seems like it's almost like a built in imperative. We are built to serve others. It seems like it.

Marty: Yeah, I mean, well, if you look at most animals that are social, social, you know, social creatures, they, yeah, I mean, know, if you're the bee that's, you know, The, you know, you've got a job and it's part of this big web of things and you and you perform it and it makes you fulfilled, right? Same thing with pack of dogs or what have you.

Bill: Mm hmm. Pride of lions. That reminds me of an image that I saw on social media the other day of a mother lion protecting her little cub. She'd gotten into this ferocious fight with a predator of some sort and lost a tooth and she was all [00:37:00] bloody. But this picture shows her, you know, kind of cuddling. Protecting the cub that she fought just like it was life. She said, Yeah, that that really, that was a profound image to look at that.

Marty: Right? And a pack animal, the, you know, on its own, it might survive, but not a whole, it's not whole, like, like an aspen tree. You know, they, they, they're not single trees. They're all connected in the roots. you don't, you rarely do you find just one. And that would be because, you know, put it there, right? Because that's just not the way they be. And we're like that too. We're not, we're not, we, we, we're not our full selves when we're just off on

Bill: Yeah, we, we all, I believe that we all need connection that, and that without it, we're like Tom Hanks on the [00:38:00] island in cast away that needs that needs to draw the face of, uh, on, on, on a soccer ball

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: in order to feel some sort of connection.

Marty: Right.

Bill: So that's where we started, you know, how much. How much time do we need alone? How much time do we need with others? And it sounds like what we, what you and I both agree on is that the amount of time isn't really as much the question as what we get from being alone and what we get from being with others as well as the quality of either one of those experiences. And if being alone or being with someone else is managed around suffering. That's a dramatically different experience than being alone or being around others from an internal drive that is inspired by our true, authentic selves.

Marty: I think I wouldn't want to say anything more after that. That was perfectly [00:39:00] stated. Is it too early to end this

Bill: In fact, as I look at the clock, it's perfect. We're coming up on 40 minutes since we hit record. I have my men's recovery group next. What's next for you today, Marty?

Marty: Um, I, I, my men's group is here this evening, so I need to clean the living room up.

Bill: Oh, they're actually coming there in person. I can't now see when you when I imagine having people coming over to my house, having a man, a group of men coming over to my house that just sounds delicious. I, I miss that. I haven't done that for a long, long time. Kind of a lot of that went away from me with COVID. I, my men's group is going to be on zoom. There's going to be, I think six or seven men with me today for 90 minutes. I so look forward to it. I get to be coach, you know, so I get to support these men. I'm a little bit down further down the road than they are in recovery of their true authentic self. That's why we call it the men's recovery group. And then after my men's recovery group, I'll get a [00:40:00] little bit of a break before I do parts for practice. Okay. And Parts of Work Practice is a free group that my co host Allison Dyer and I do for anybody that's interested in learning how to use the IFS model to support themselves, to support their own personal growth and recovery and for some healing. So it's not a therapy group, it's a practice group. Using exercises that we've designed. So that's going on tonight and I expect that, uh, we will host probably 50 to 60 people, do breakout rooms, do, do practice exercises, and talk all about IFS. So if you happen to be watching and or, and or listening to this podcast episode and are interested in checking out parts, work practice, free resource, no obligation, no pressure to do anything of it that you don't wanna do. Uh, just go to my website, Bill Tierney coaching. com and look under groups and you'll find parts for practice. And I'd love to see you there. So that's what I'm doing tonight. There's that service work that I was talking about, Marty, that's, that is born out of the need. I have a need to offer services to people, [00:41:00] uh, separate from, uh, getting paid back in any way. So

Marty: Great.

Bill: great conversation. I'll see you later. A little later in the week. Have a great men's group tonight.

Marty: Thank you. You too.

Bill: Don't burn up your house, man. Take care.