Worry and Wonder

Bill: Worry or wonder. That's what we want to talk about. Hi, you've joined the Leadership Coaching Podcast and that is co hosted by Dr. Martin Kettelhut, also known as Doc or Marty. I call him Marty. Welcome, Marty. And by me, I'm Bill Tierney and I'm a, how do I want to identify myself now? I am a certified IFS practitioner, I'm a certified IFS practitioner. And in fact, I'm working on getting that renewed for a couple more years because it's important to me that I maintain my certification with the IFS Institute. And lately I've really been focusing on thinking of myself as a recovery coach, although that's not on my website. I'm a results coach, but I've been talking about myself as a recovery coach recently because I love working with people who recognize that they've lost. Their connection with their true authentic self, and I love helping people recover that. Now, that's not the traditional sense of the word. We talked about this a couple of episodes ago when we talk about recovery and you think about what's a recovery coach that somebody is going to help somebody with substance abuse and addiction issues. But and while I do work with those people for sure. I am one myself. I is one. I'm just working with anybody who knows and recognizes and is at the point like I, who the hell am I? But today, let's wonder about that and any other thing that we might worry about.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: as I, as I introduce in this way, Marty, what's gone, what's on your mind?

Marty: I was thinking about what you're saying about recovery and how we sort of like the, this, the human condition, I, we, none of us ever completely lose touch with self. So, it is always recoverable. We are always connected to self, even if we've got. You know, a bunch of bad habits in the way or a bunch of disempowering thoughts in the way it's always accessible. You know, it might take a lot of work, but it's there. We are ultimately the self. And, um, so the human condition is it's all about recovering ourselves, whether, you know, you're already way down the path to self realization. Or if you know, you're not even interested, that is the path that we're all on the humanity. In general is on this path to itself. It's truth.

Bill: Yeah, no doubt. In my mind. Anyhow.

Marty: So I like, so what I'm saying is I like that understanding of it, that you're putting out there. I think that that could seen in that light recovery could be, you know, something very inspiring and attractive to all of us. not just people who have an addiction.

Bill: couple of things crossed my mind as you were making those comments. Several things, actually. Let's see if I can capture a few of them that are actually relevant to this conversation. One of them is that you announced just this morning for the first time that I've seen anyhow that your book, Leadership as Relation, um, Is available now on audible and I knew that you were the voice I knew that you had read it into the into audible or as an audio book, but until I started listening this morning, I didn't realize the how how much more value for me. I'm getting from listening to your book than I got from reading it.

Marty: Oh, wow.

Bill: I haven't quite finished your book, and I think I may have mentioned that in my email to you this morning. I'm roughly 80 percent through it, I think. And I've enjoyed it. It's been good. But I gotta tell you, it's a little bit of work. It's a little bit of work to read that book.

Marty: I totally expect that. Yes.

Bill: And I totally expect that you had to work your ass off to write it. Uh, but you know, you'd never know it listening to you as you read it. You'd never know that this was work other than possibly a work of labor of love. I think, you know, the intonations any I'm getting off on a little path here, but, um, just the way you read it provides just a little bit more information for me about how you felt about what you wrote as you read it. Interesting. So anyhow, leadership is relation. I highly, highly, highly recommend that you, that you pick it up if you haven't read it yet,

Marty: if you, if you're a member or I don't know if it's a prime member or just a member it's on, it's only 99 cents right now. So

Bill: Oh, really? I paid, I paid nine bucks for it. I'm a prime member.

Marty: Maybe, maybe It's a member of, you have to be a member of Audible. Are you a member of Audible?

Bill: I bought it through prime. So anyhow, it's still it's under 10 bucks. It might even be under a dollar. It sounds like in any case, it's a great lesson so far. I'm not very far into it. I'm just really enjoying your voice and your, and the way you read it. The, the. The life that you put into reading it. It's awesome.

Marty: Well, I very much appreciate your saying all of that. Thank you.

Bill: So what is that may or may not have anything to do with wonder and worry that just happened to pop in my mind when I listened to you talking and I realized, listen to the passion that's in his voice. And as he's talking about this and how much he how much he loves just doing this exploration. So that word exploration really wouldn't be much. It wouldn't be the same experience without the wonder And there's another word I think that we can throw in that makes exploration more enjoyable, maybe? More of a fulfilling experience. Wonder and curiosity. I wondered kind of points to, w o n d e r, points to curiosity.

Marty: Yes. Well, that's, that's my association with it. Wonder. There's an almost magical shade to it, the way I think of wonder, because it's like, it's wonder ful, and, and it's, it's wonder ous, and, and, you, full of wonder, like, Flipper, remember the show Flipper?

Bill: Oh sure, yeah. Yeah.

Marty: Right? He lives in a land full of wonder,

Bill: Uh huh.

Marty: lying there under, under the sea. That

Bill: huh.

Marty: song, right? So I, I, ever since I was a little kid, watching that show, Wonder, just, ah, I wonder. It's got that magical piece to it that, um, and all of this is very different from Worrying.

Bill: Oh yeah,

Marty: Worrying is like, okay, it's closed. It's, it's not opening. It's, it's,

Bill: It's fear based. One wonder is joy based, I would say, and, and yeah, worry is fear based.

Marty: exactly right. Exactly.

Bill: And when fear comes in, for me, and maybe it's not black and white, but when fear comes in, it cuts off joy

Marty: Yeah. Now how, and it could probably be the other way around. If you could notice you're in wonder and somehow shift to, to wonder,

Bill: from fear, from worry.

Marty: in worry, beg your pardon, if you're in worry and could shift to wonder, it would do the same, like you couldn't be worried anymore, you couldn't be fearful anymore, if you were really experiencing wonder and joy. Now, how do you make that transition?

Bill: So eight minutes and 22 seconds into the podcast, I'm finally going to talk about IFS. It took me a while today. Usually it's like 30 seconds in. But there's always a practical application of I. F. S. And as a coach, I'm listening. I'm watching. I'm looking for opportunities to use the internal family systems model to move the needle.

Marty: I gotta tell you by the way, just parenthetically here, I don't mean to interrupt but I can't help, but use IFS even though I'm not trained, it just I see it and I hear it all the time with my clients now. And so I'm not doing it. Probably as expertly, I'm definitely not doing it as expertly as, as you would, but even simple, you know, man on the street kind of IFS questions can be very helpful to clients and I can't help it now. I can't see the world without family systems anymore,

Bill: Well, and I, I love hearing you say that and I'm not, and, and I'm not surprised because in our conversations, that's the way you clearly think of yourself and other people, even though you're not using the language of IFS as much as I am, clearly you see that and you see how, um, How we all are made up of parts and, and when, when, sometimes when we kind of make mistakes or say things that really aren't very helpful or do things that kind of get in the way of what we're really up to, uh, you see, I see and what a relief it is for anybody to be able to see. Oh, that's a part of me. I need to tend to that part. I need to notice what's happening. And that's not to say I need to control that part of me because that doesn't work. That's to that. Let's I wonder if we could wonder about it. I wonder if we can wonder about that part. Yeah. I wonder why that part felt like it needed to react right there. Huh. Let me ask it. And that's the thing that IFS lets us, lets us do, shows us how to do. Is, If you wonder about what happened inside, and why it happened inside, and how it was that it happened despite the fact that you had no control over it, you didn't consciously choose to do it, you just felt, you felt this thing in your body, let's say, you felt this emotion, you heard words coming out of your mouth, and then you made up a story that you were in charge of that, that somehow you made that all happen.

Marty: right?

Bill: And, and, and in the past, before I knew about parse work, I would just as quickly as I could. Try to retrieve those words, put them back in my mouth and undo what damage I did. Yeah.

Marty: And how effective can that be too?

Bill: It's a lot of damage control.

Marty: So I interrupted your train of thought, you were going to say, at 8 minutes and 22 seconds, you were going to say, here's what IFS, you wanted to bring IFS to this wonder,

Bill: and you're saying, how do we shift from worry to wonder? I believe that that's the question. There's something to that effect. And so. Let's get curious about what parts of us would be worrying, or, and first of all, maybe we even should say let's first notice that there are parts of us that influence us to begin to worry. I have a worrying part. I might have a hundred worrying parts, but let's just say in any given situation, three o'clock in the morning, my eyes blink open, I look up into the dark, onto the dark ceiling, and my mind is cranking, ruminating, worrying about something. I And it doesn't matter whether other parts of me think it's important what it is that I'm worrying about it. This part that's worrying at 3 o'clock in the morning, if I can then be separate from the part that worries about whatever it's ruminating about, And get curious about it and wonder what's going on with this part. Now I don't want to be doing that. I want to be sleeping at three o'clock in the morning. And what I'll tell my clients a lot of times is. If you want to get back to sleep, make sure you have a, your calendar or a potent notepad next to your bed so that you can negotiate with part and say, Hey, do you mind? Can we do that at 945 tomorrow morning? Can we talk about this? I promise I'll get back with you. We'll spend 15 minutes together and we'll think this all the way through. But right now, do you mind if I get some sleep? And amazingly, 9 times out of 10, that really works for, for people, if they have a relationship with their parts. Parts will say, Oh, yeah, but boy, keep your promise. Make sure that 9, at 9 45, you don't blow them off because then they'll be back at three o'clock in the morning. And next time they won't believe you that you're, that you're going to talk to them at 9 45 morning. So to answer your question, when there's worry, a part has for them, a valid and legitimate concern. If we just try to manage and control the part and say, shut up, I want to go to sleep. I'm tired of listening to you. By the way, that would be another part that's interacting with that worrying part. Then the internal conflict and battle will just continue. I'll have, I'll continue to have trouble thinking or sleeping and thinking and nothing will get resolved. So if I'm not going in and connecting with my parts so that I can fix whatever problem that they have, I'm going in and connecting with my parts so I can wonder about what it is they're worried about from a place of not being worried.

Marty: Okay. Um, so there's one separates from the part in order to get curious about it. Another thing that I'm noticing here Is that worry is imagining the future and generating thoughts about it. Wonder is being in the present and exploring it, right?

Bill: Mm

Marty: That's another, that's another shift, a part of the shift. So yes, there has to be this looking at rather than just being the part. That separation within so that you get curious about part of yourself, but then there's also a shift from dwelling thoughtful thought with your thoughts on the future that has to be brought into the present. And question, you know, ask, get getting curious about what's going on right here now,

Bill: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I hadn't, you're absolutely right. It's not just about, when there's worry. Is it always about the future? Well, it certainly isn't about the present, is it? Because at three o'clock in the morning, unless the house is on fire, grizzly bears breaking through the door, there's nothing to be afraid of,

Marty: right? And it's different from the sorts of psychological relationships we have to things that happened in the past, like regret, right? Worry is about something that's coming, isn't it?

Bill: It could be, yeah, it could be a combination of that regret. Um, I wish I hadn't said that to her. Before we went to bed, I wonder how she's doing. I wonder if she's mad at me. I wonder how tomorrow morning is going to be. I wonder if she's awake right now and pretending to be asleep. So that's that's a worry about something that happened in the past. But it's also as you say. A concern about the future. Oh,

Marty: I just noticed something very important to pass on to the listeners to like, we often use the word worry. I'm sorry, wonder as you just did, which was to me, worry. I wonder if she's gonna, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder. That, what you were actually worrying. So it's good to know we use the word wonder sometimes when we're actually worrying.

Bill: Oh my. That's a nice distinction there, Marty. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I did use it in that way. And that's not to say I need to be more careful with my language at all. It's just notice that the wonder that we're talking about

Marty: Right. is different. Yes, exactly.

Bill: curiosity, joy based. As we said earlier on, it's not the fear based wonder.

Marty: Yeah, like I'm just remembering a crystal clear example of this that stuck with me, kind of because it hurt. But the one time in the mastermind call, I think there was two or threes. meetings ago, I said to one of our compatriots, I will name her. Um, you know, I think the answer lies in your going into that experience and really discovering what is gone. She wasn't budging. She wasn't. Going there and so I dropped it and you then you slowed it when you really wondered what's going on in there and you slowed it way down and got her present and, and it was effective. It was very effective. So I I got worried. That that she wasn't responsive and you wondered well, wait a minute. I think the answer is here That was a beautiful thing.

Bill: Huh? Yeah. So you're sharing that you're reminded of that as we're talking about this distinction between wonder as worry or wonder as joy or wonder as discovery. Yeah. So in that example, my wondering from discovery from curiosity had had some sort of maybe energetic impact on her or she maybe felt like she could join me with that curiosity.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: yeah, I think it had that wonderfulness that Wondrousness about it. You got her to get curious about herself Right? And that so that was that was what was very effective about your coaching her.

Bill: You know, I, I, um, I'm curious. As we opened up the episode here today, I was, and you were, you were talking a little bit and I, and I thought about who do I know in my life that goes to default worry and who do I know in my life? Yeah. You. Okay. And, and

Marty: It was it was just like the way of being in my in my family of origin. That's what we did about everything. You know, something great happens. You know, somebody comes to the door and gives us a box of cookies for Christmas. And we I wonder if they're safe to eat. I you know, I'm worried that there I did it again. I'm I'm worried that, you know, if we, my parents would worry, like, if other parishioners saw that we had an exchange with that parishioner, that they'd be jealous, and so we were worried about that. We just worried about little thing. And so, you know, it's really a style of being in the world that I inherited.

Bill: That's a great funny example, uh, who comes to mind from me immediately is not someone that's in my life anymore. At least not in the flesh, but my mom

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: passed away in 2011, I believe. Uh, and we had a really great turnaround on our relationship the last couple of years that she was alive. She and I both knew that she didn't have much longer to go. Her body just kept breaking down and every once in a while she'd end up in the hospital. And, uh, she She had lung problems because she'd smoked for decades and Uh, heart problems that were associated with that and so we knew, we knew she didn't have much longer and, and I realized, oh man, I, I don't like how this feels. I don't like how it feels to relate to my mother as I, as I do. Like, I don't want to talk to her. I had a lot of judgments about her. I'm still resentful and angry about things that have happened in the past. And I happen to be talking to, um, fellow member of AA when I was still participating in AA back in, I don't know, 2008 or 2009. And he was telling me about an amends that he had made, how his sponsor had challenged him to make amends to his mother. And he felt much like I did about my mother at that time. Like I'm. She abandoned me. She did this. She did that. And the sponsor said, you know, uh, you know, this is, this was the ninth and 10th step, like made a list of people. We had persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. And my friend just couldn't find anything that how he had harmed her in any way, shape or form. And, um, and so the sponsor pointed out to him, you know, what is what a mother's want regarding their children? What a mother's want? They want to know. That their children are okay. That's really all they want and by you refusing to have conversations with her and letting her know how you are, how your wife is, how your family is, how your kids are doing. You're really cheating her of that. Do you really need to continue to punish her in that way? And he just nailed my friend. Just nailed him.

Marty: Yeah. Mhm.

Bill: And so, my friend says, What do you want me to do about this? How am I, how do you, how am I supposed to make amends to someone that's done more damage to me than I've ever done to them? And the sponsor had to work with him a lot more and say, You know, let's get the focus off of your hurt. We can talk about that separately, but you've hurt her. Can you at least acknowledge that you've hurt her by cutting her off from communications? Yeah, I get, I mean, he told me this story. I wasn't there, but he told me the story and, and he said, boy, that was hard. That was a hard pill to swallow, man. But he said, yeah, finally, he admitted, yep, I see that I've hurt her. And I can see that I hurt her because I really did wanna punish her. I, I knew I was hurting her. Now that you pointed out, I realized this is the only way I know to hurt her. So he, um, uh, he said, sponsor, what should I do? And the sponsor said, start calling her every Sunday. Just say hi mom. This is so and so. Just wanted you to know I'm okay. The kids are okay. How are you?

Marty: Mhm. Mhm.

Bill: he tells me the story and by then he'd already been doing it with his mother for two years. And he said it just transformed the relationship. I began to relate to her as the person that she was today rather than the person that I judged her as being when I was growing up.

Marty: Right,

Bill: And it made just such a huge difference, he

Marty: that's a big difference. Yeah,

Bill: Some of the best coaching I've ever gotten. And this guy's not a coach. He's a computer programmer. So I, I thought, ah,

Marty: I think this is really an important point about worry and wonder, you know, like, not only people in 12 step programs, but all of us are in relationships where we're needing to make amends of one form or another, you know, to apologize, just to acknowledge, you know, like, on a weekly basis. Sometimes, you know, to the, all of those types of things. Those men being kind of conversations. Um, we're all in need of those constantly. And when we don't engage in them, then there's cause to worry.

Bill: that's right. That's right.

Marty: And, and I love thinking about, you know, making amends with someone getting curious, wondering about how you've contributed, it's a relationship after all, you know, even if you hate your mom because she was always bitching at you. about how you contributed to that relationship, like you took the bitching or, you know, you didn't stand up or, or, you know, you made it mean that she is a bitch as opposed to, you know, wondering like, gosh, what does she need or, you know, how could she heal? There's so many ways. And so that wondering what. What is my part in this is very helpful. Very help.

Bill: I walked away from that conversation with my friend, completely convinced that I needed to do the same thing. And I didn't want to, but before we left our lunch. That day he said, so what are you going to do about your mother and your relationship with her? And, um, I said, okay, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. So that Sunday I called her up and it was the same thing for me. It was just, oh, God, I felt like I was running my through myself through one of those washing those old washing machine ringers. Oh, God. Hi, Mom. This is Bill. Billy, she says. And then she said something sarcastic like, Well, who died? Or something like

Marty: Yeah. All right.

Bill: And, uh, I said, Mom, I just wanted to let you know that I'm doing good. The kids are doing okay. I'm sorry I haven't called you for a long time and I'd like to just call you every Sunday if that's okay. How you doing? And we had, I listened to her do what she does for, did at that time for maybe five minutes. It was as much as I could take. So here was my complaint about her. She worried about everything. So if I was going to have a conversation with her, she was going to tell me everything that she worried about. Well, I've got six siblings at that time. Excuse me, seven. No, I'm right. I lost count. Six siblings. And there were seven of us. And so she would go chronologically, chronologically by age, down the list of all her children that she worried about. I'm worried about Jeannie. I'm worried about Stan. I'm worried about Cindy. I'm worried about Angel. I'm worried about Christy. I'm worried about, and she did this and she didn't do that. And they, he did this and he didn't do that. And, uh, Every word that came out of her mouth, I just felt like I was carrying this huge burden and like I couldn't wait to get off the phone with her. So, I mean, I was really feeling like I was paying a price by making this amends. I'm really sacrificing because I'm tolerating putting up this bullshit from her. So finally, I keep doing this every Sunday for like five, six months and finally one day and this, I look back on this now and I realize this was probably a better amends than anything that I'd ever done, even calling her. That was great. Uh, but, but I said, before we get started today, mom, uh, I want you to know that it's hard. These conversations are hard for me because it's hard for me to hear everything that you worry about. I'm wondering if there's anything that you're happy about in your life. Could you tell me about that? And there was this long pause and I was waiting for the dial tone. And she didn't hang up and she didn't thank me for saying that, but she stopped complaining and something shifted in our relationship. At that point, we shifted from worry to joy. She started telling me about the things that she was really pretty happy about. Well, I saw your grandma the other day. She's still alive, still smoking at 92 years old and she's still kicking and. You know, I visited your dad's grave and, you know, she started complaining about that and caught herself and said, so I cleaned it all up and looks good and started driving at 69 years old or whatever she was at that time. And it changed everything, not just because she started focusing on what she was happy about, but because I spoke up and said, this is why this is so hard for me. And, and, and it just, it changed everything. So the last two years of her life, we ended up having a dramatically different relationship than we'd had. The first seven, whatever it was, however old I was when she died. Years of my life.

Marty: A similar thing. The one of the most transformational conversations between my dad and myself was similar. Like I didn't, I didn't have anything to apologize for. I couldn't think of anything that I had done wrong. You know, I would, I would be different now, but at that time, so I, I, I brought up a wonder, I wondered about something. I, you know, I wondered in, out loud to him, like, How he reconciled all these great qualities, you know. Um, teach me how to play baseball and taking us camping in the 10, 000 lakes area and, and, you know, teaching me to be an ethical person, all these great things, and I just wondered with him how, you know, he could also be such a temper and treat moms, verbally and, and give us the silent treatment as a family for months. And I just wondered out loud with him

Bill: Mhm.

Marty: and, um, It was, it changed our relationship. It completely from that moment. And he was like, I can't believe you brought this up. Nobody has ever talked to me about this before. And I feel really bad about it. And I've never been able to say that. And, you know, he said, he said, well, I said, well, maybe we could find a different way to be in those times. And he's, he said, well, maybe bringing humor to it all. And I said, well, then let's see how that works. And he said, well, you know, sometimes when I'm really angry and, and I'm taking it out on the family, I just want to kick myself, but I can't get my foot around there. He was, he was being funny.

Bill: There's the humor.

Marty: He was trying to be funny, right? And so, but from that point on, we talked things out instead of yelling at each other. I mean, fortunately, it was quite late in his life, but, you know, from that moment on, we always talked things out. It was very different from that point on. So again, wonder was the key.

Bill: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And wonder based on curiosity, joy and discovery, not wonder based on worry.

Marty: which is what I had been doing for many years, is wonder worrying, wonder if he's going to explode if I tell him this, wonder if I'm going to get yelled at for that, wonder if, you know, he's going to speak to us in the next 30 days. That was really worry and it separated us rather than bringing us together. So then when I saw that I was able to take responsibility and make amends for sitting over here worrying about him instead of wondering how I could, you know, participate with him.

Bill: for that. That story, too. Um, I'm just noticing as I'm listening to you right now that the reason that we're able to have these conversations and record these episodes and getting get in front of however number of people would be watching this on YouTube or listening to it on Apple or Spotify or any of the other platforms. Is because we're not too worried. We can't possibly be worrying about what people are thinking of what we're saying. But in the moments that I worry, like, oh, shit, I wish I had said that differently. Or I wonder how that came across. I leave the present moment in that moment. I leave the present moment. I'm less present in this conversation and, and, and for me that, that requires that I regroup and bring myself back here again as quickly as I possibly can to stay in the conversation. Most of the time what I notice, and we've had a couple of episodes where it was a little bit clunky and we weren't connecting as well. And I And I wonder if I were to go back there just again, I wonder if I went, were to go back and listen to those particular episodes. If maybe I could pick up on the nuances that would indicate where did my mind go there just now? What, what was it that caused that, that disconnection between Marty and I, or, or, or that break in the, in the conversation? One, I suspect that what I might find is that my mind went off in a different agenda for, for example, whether it's worrying about Worrying about what I think you meant by what you said, or worrying about what someone might think about my objection, my taking the conversation in a different direction, or just simply having my mind wander and not even being present at all.

Marty: It's so, it's so amazing. I can count the number of bruises and scrapes that I get in a week that I'm not present versus, you know, the, you know, the, the care that I take in moving through the world when I'm not preoccupied. It's, I mean, that's just one way that I measured that the difference, you know, when I'm, when my head is full of worries, I, I will, you know, bump my elbow or scrape my knee because I'm, I'm bumping around the world, not paying attention fully,

Bill: Yeah, exactly.

Marty: and the thing is, these are, this is not trivial stuff, if you're, if you take but one second to go, I wonder, you know, why did that guy cut me off? Like, what kind of a boom, the accident can happen? We, I mean, we, I don't mean to be a worrywart here, but you do, you know, there are consequences to letting your mind, you know, wander off.

Bill: I'm worried that if my, let my mind wander, I'm going to, I'm going to wonder how I got in that accident.

Marty: That's right. That's right.

Bill: So we've gone from wonder.

Marty: It doesn't take much time at all. It's an, it's incredible, you know, and I can immediately see as soon as I've done it, like, that's, you know, it happens to me sometimes when I'm swimming my laps. Because it's repetitive, you know, and you're, you're tempting to be. Pay attention the whole time, but every once in a while, it's like, oh, wow, that's a nice bathing suit in the next lane and you hit the wall, or, you know, or you tear a muscle or something. I mean, it's. You know, not getting into that worry place is important.

Bill: I was just noticing that the conversation started out in my mind as. The contrast between a black and a white, between a ying and a yang, it's, it is worry or wonder, worry versus wonder. And now, thanks to this conversation, I'm thinking of worry and wonder in a different way. fear based, can include wondering, but it's, if it's fear based wondering, It's not the same as the quality of of life that comes about as a result as joy, curiosity, and discovery based wonder.

Marty: And just to underscore what you're saying, I have a client who, instead of a gratitude journal, a lot of this, you know, uh, have discovered from one source or another, the, the value of stopping to be grateful and recognize what we've got and how life altering that can be in the long run. I have a client that chose to keep a wonder journal.

Bill: Oh,

Marty: Things that he wonders about. Things that he finds wonderful. Things that are wondrous to him. And, you know, like, like he'll, there was one passage in my book about, um, star constellations. We don't need to go into the details about it, but that got him wondering, right? About which constellations are in which part of the sky and what did they mean and all that. You can also, I just want to recommend, you know, or suggest, I should say, that this is as valuable to get yourself in that wondering place that we're talking about, the wonder, wonder at God's creation, or the wondrous things that we can do as human beings, to get yourself in that mindset, keep a journal of wonders, just like you would a journal of Things you're grateful for.

Bill: this morning I had a coaching group, um, one of my recovery groups. And in that con in that group, um, this morning, one of the participants brought up. Being in a particular disempowered state of mind and she she mentioned that she was making it mean that she was gonna always feel this way because she's always felt this way and So she's in that state of mind. Of course. She's not always feeling that way We don't always ever feel the same way all the time, but a part of her was Being pretty Eeyore about it. I'm always gonna feel this way Nothing's going to be better. And so we had a nice conversation about that, like when we're in that state, notice, and she labeled it as, there's a part of me that feels like a victim. Now that's a, that word, victim. Notice what happens inside when you think about yourself as a victim. As adults, for most of us, and I'll just speak for myself, if someone were to say to me, Bill, you are acting like such a victim, that would really activate some.

Marty: Well, that's been pointed out to me on our mastermind calls before, by the way.

Bill: What was the effect? That's what I'm looking for here.

Marty: I felt small. I felt more wrong, you know, I felt embarrassed Like, Oh my God, I got caught being a bad boy. Almost.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So here's the point that I made in the group at one time or another, probably many times for any of us, we were actually victimized. Especially as children, when we, and when we don't have the power, resources, or influence to be able to do something about something that's happened, that's painful,

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: that hurts.

Marty: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Bill: And fortunately, and Carl Jung states this so well, um, and then Francis Weller's the one that taught me that Carl Jung states this so well in his book, The Wild Edge of Sorrow, that the psyche has the ability to fraction, to, to fragment off. And bundle up these highly concentrated bundles of energy so that we can survive those kinds of situations because I want to say that, you know, step one in the 12 steps, we admitted we were powerless over fill in the blank and that our lives had become in the manager and unmanageable that that word powerless. That is, that is part of feeling victimized.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: I'm in the state of powerlessness. There's nothing I can do about it. I am at the mercy of I'm the victim of something of self experience.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: So when a part of us. What, first of all, let me just say it this way. When I'm feeling victimized, first of all, I'm not going to tell you that because you might say, Bill, you're acting like such a victim. And I don't want, I don't want to hear that. That makes, it makes me feel the way that you just described so well. Like I've done something wrong, I'm small, um, I'm ashamed of myself. I'm feeling embarrassed.

Marty: I have no power. Mm-hmm

Bill: no power. I don't want to admit, I can't, if I actually believe I don't have any power, the last thing I want to do is let the world know I don't have any power. I'm screwed. If I do that. Because I feel like I'm at the mercy of something. I'm not, I can't give away any power that I don't even have anymore. So, anyhow. So where we went with that was, um, doesn't it make sense that if we had to fragment off parts of ourselves that felt victimized, that those victim states of being are still innocent somewhere? And doesn't it also make sense that as adults, when life pokes us especially hard, and we are at a reduced capacity, on low power mode, And don't have access to true self that that we would feel that those same feelings associated with being victimized, feeling powerless.

Marty: Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Bill: So here's the point that I wanted to make with my coaching clients is that we all get into those states and when we're in the states, because we don't have any access to power, there's nothing we can do about it. We are actually powerless.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: What if before we get into those states, knowing that that can and will happen, most of us still have that highly concentrated energy fragmented and stored somewhere inside of us. And most of us have lives that no matter what we've done to avoid having that triggered or activated, we still, life still finds ways to activate and trigger the victim in us. What if we knew what to do in advance? So that when we don't have any access to our own power, we know there's something that we can do to get ourselves out of that,

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: victim state. So we thought of a couple of things, like, um, gratitude. And it occurs to me, wonder.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: Like, let me find one thing that I can, that I can be grateful for. Oh, this, this, thermos, it keeps my water cold. Oh, I'm so grateful for that. Uh, presence. Oh, look at how big that screen is. Jeez, look at that. It's framed in. So being present, just noticing something in this present moment. Oh, my breath. God, I hadn't, I forgot that I had breath. So it brings me back into the present moment. That's a way to get power back

Marty: Yes.

Bill: when, when I don't feel powerful.

Marty: Right. Cause you can't, you can't affect anything in the past or the future. You can only affect something here in the present moment. So that's, that's the only place you can have any power.

Bill: Exactly so. And interestingly, by bringing, doing whatever I can to bring myself into the present moment

Marty: by the way, I mean, it's a little late to speak about, you know, uh, techniques for Thanksgiving dinner with your, you know, relatives, but there will be many such occasions going forward, especially in this, you know, deeply divided society of ours to wonder about the people on the other side, you know, as opposed to worry about what's going on. You know, get curious.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why they're so close minded. Mm hmm. All right, we need to begin to wrap up. I've got a session coming up here soon. We've been at it for about 45 minutes here. It's been a wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And there's so much more I realize that we could be saying. Anything else you want to say? About wonder as discovery or wonder as worry

Marty: No, I thank you for bringing the topic because I think it's, you know, it's something we can all relate to and, and, and to have more awareness of what we're doing is always helpful. So

Bill: one, by the way, one of my clients brought this idea to me yesterday morning. I mentioned to you before we hit record that yesterday morning, one of my clients said that she was listening to, I don't know if it's a training or a workshop, but it was based on internal family systems model and the facilitator of the workshop brought up this thing about wonder and worry. Oh, gosh. I wrote it down real quick. You said you liked that, didn't you? Now, yes, I did. I need to explore that a little bit. So thanks, my friend, for helping me to explore that a little bit.

Marty: pleasure.

Bill: Until next time, thanks for joining us on the Leadership Coaching Podcast.