Marty: welcome to another episode of the Leadership Podcast with Bill Tierney and Martin Kettelhut. We have a very special guest today, a coach with particular interest in relational intelligence, which is something we've talked about, but haven't called it quite that and focused on it. So Paul is going to help us with that. Paula Freeman, who has her own coaching practice. But Bill, would you like to introduce her formally?

Bill: Absolutely. Um, hi Paula. Thanks for joining us today. We really have been looking forward to having you on the show.

Paula: Hello. I'm happy to be here with you guys. You gave me some information, uh, which is going to be so much better than if I just ad libbed. What I, what I, although I might do some of that as well. Uh, so I'm going to read essentially from what you gave us. And so I understand that you've been coaching for 15 years and prior to coaching, you were working in the corporate world, managing professional liability claims in the insurance world. I'll bet you just loved that. Didn't you

Paula: There was a good amount of time that I did until I didn't

Bill: until you didn't, uh, you're married to Scott and you have a son in college who you never talk about, you never talk about your son.

Paula: imagine that.

Bill: Who you are so proud of. Of course you are. And of course you should be. Family is one of my highest values. You say it is what led you to coaching. Coaching has changed your life and your world. Go on to say that you have a passion for helping people unlock their potential, navigate challenges and design the life they truly want. Over the years, you've worked with individuals from all walks of life, guiding them to discover their strengths, set meaningful goals, and take bold step toward their dreams. And you especially enjoy, and I can't wait to learn more about this from you, relational, relational intelligence. When you're not coaching, you love to go sailing, and you, you took Marty and me, and Jeff, and, uh, I'm out on the boat with the dog Chloe. Um, and you like to sail on the Salish sea. Recently you gotten into pickleball and you find that it unleashes your competitive side. Uh, yeah, don't let me play pickleball with you because there might be conflict. I'm kind of competitive too. And I'm not, well, I'm not very good. So I don't know how that would be for me to have you beat me. Your philosophy life's too short to settle. And there's always room to grow. You're excited to share your journey insights. I'm looking forward to where this conversation takes us today. There we are

Marty: So, um, relational intelligence, if you might start by just, what is that? Is, is it, you know, like a, is there an outline form that you could give our listeners? What, what are we talking about here?

Paula: Well, it's really the ability to effectively communicate and connect with others, maybe on a deeper level.

Marty: And so just, I'm going to kind of. Combined some interests of mine in this conversation. Um, so I'm assuming and so I'm asking you to look and see, did your own relational intelligence have anything to do with your move from that powerless corporate position to running your own coaching practice?

Paula: is

Marty: so, good

Paula: a great question. Yes. I'm going to say yes. And, but I didn't know it at the time. I, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And at that time, you know, reflecting back, I feel like I was such a different person then, then who I am today. And back in that time, I, I had hit a wall where I just felt really powerless, really powerless in creating the kind of life that I wanted to live. And, um, yeah, I'll just, I'll pause there.

Marty: Yeah, I know. I think that makes a lot of sense that, you know, I've heard feedback from people who listen to the podcast who are leaders of one sort or another. They lead their own lives, one thing, but they are also leading conversations and business and, and sometimes managing other people, etc. And, um, it is the sort of like the key that opens the door. that the relationships and how we get up. And so what got brought out of you by that transition in the way of Relational intelligence and again, like my, my interest in asking these questions isn't to put you personally on the spot, but just to give our read our listeners readers a sense of, you know, what, what does it take to be relationally intelligent?

Paula: Yeah. Well, I think what I want to start with is relating to others and relating to yourself. And, um, We're in relationship all the time, whether we realize it or not. Um, we're in relationship.

Marty: read my newsletter today.

Paula: We're on the same wavelength. Um, so whether it's relating to your coworkers, to your superiors, to people, um, in your family, um, and to yourself. And I I was in a place where I was unaware of my own power and strength and abilities. And I had just kind of, um, found myself in a place where I might label it. victimhood. And so what coaching did for me is made me see that I wasn't a victim and I did have choice and I did have power and there was a whole lot more out there that I had access to than I didn't even know.

Marty: One of the things that coaching provides generally is it uncovers these blind spots about our own, um, victimhood, our own power. What was the other thing you said? Um, place in the world.

Paula: Yeah, opportunity that was right in front of me that I didn't even recognize or see.

Marty: great. Okay. Sorry, Bill. Go ahead.

Bill: Well, how did you get your first coach? How did that happen?

Paula: Um, it was a friend of mine. Well, well, I think I need to back up a little bit more. I was, I was in this corporate world and I was so dissatisfied. And I thought, is this all there is? And. If I could have a do over, is this what I would be doing? And it was a big no, definitely not. And then I thought, well, so if you could do anything, what would it be? And then I began my journey and I thought I wanted something more in the line of therapy, but I wanted, what I discovered is I wanted to work with well people.

Marty: Mm

Paula: And I had a good friend of mine who was a neighbor who was both a therapist and a coach and, um, I didn't even know coaching had existed. So, She gave me my first coaching call, my first coaching session, and, um, and that was the beginning.

Bill: That was in the early 2000s. Is that right?

Paula: Um, yeah, around 2005, 6,

Bill: Okay. So you thought that you were you saying that you thought you might want to get some therapy or that you want to become a therapist?

Paula: I was thinking that maybe I'd want to look at that path, a career path. I had done. quite a bit of therapy myself. Um, and then I was able to contrast it with coaching after I done coaching. And I saw for me a big difference of with coaching being able to get this momentum of moving forward and really creating versus therapy kind of just sitting In what I discovered, um,

Marty: Mm hmm. Mm

Bill: So your neighbor who's, who's, um, hybrid therapist coach tells you from his perspective what's the difference between therapy and coaching. And then was he your coach or did you find someone else?

Paula: it would be she and,

Bill: I'm sorry. I had it in my

Paula: that's okay. And, um, no, she didn't become my coach. She sent me on a path to, um, discover more. She was very hands off and, um, she told me about it. I experienced it. And from there I went and started to research. Um, coach training programs. And, um, so she kind of set me on a path of what she would recommend, um, having an accredited school by the international coaching federation. And, and so then I found accomplishment coaching and then. That's when I really started getting coached.

Bill: Right. I should just say we didn't tie this in yet in this in this episode. So I want to just say that the reason we invited Paula and the reason we know Paula to invite her to the episode to the podcast is because Paula, you and I and Marty have been together in the Friday morning podcast. Coach's mastermind group, which is currently made up of five coaches. And we've, we've tried to do the history on this, but it's somewhere in the ballpark of seven or eight years now. I believe

Paula: Mm hmm.

Bill: where we meet every Friday and we mastermind, we get our, we get our minds together and we share our wins and our challenges. And we've gotten to know each other very well. We've had a couple of face to face reunions, uh, in New Mexico a couple of years ago. And, uh, In Seattle this past summer and, and so, uh, anyhow, just thought I'd throw that in. So, you go to coaching. You begin to really get that, oh, this is different than therapy. And from this, I want to, I think I want to become a coach. So now you go into coach training. How is that for you? The coach training?

Paula: It was wonderful. I it started it was the beginning of really turning my world upside down and Really tackling some of the Inner foundational beliefs that I was holding that I was unaware of that really, um, come full circle to relational intelligence or some of the things that can get in the way as we are out in the world relating to others and ourselves.

Bill: I'm wondering if you could maybe give us some examples, if you're comfortable doing so, either speaking. Sure. Thank you. Very generally, of course, about about client experiences and who you've helped and how you've helped them.

Paula: Sure. I was actually just, that's a great question. And I have a fresh example in my mind of a client, um, Who's working on her marriage and she was talking about, just being playful with her husband felt so vulnerable to her. And so by digging into that and actually taking snapshots of her example and going in slow motion and really looking deeply at the little steps leading up to it, we were able to discover, um, kind of, we were able to dismantle this vulnerability that what she was afraid of um, was rejection and really What was happening wasn't rejection, but just misinformation. And so there was a big disconnect with, I gave it to the, um, I related it with the metaphor of like baseball, like if she's holding the baseball, she throws it to her husband and rather than it landing in the mitt, it would hit him in the head. And he's like, and his response was one of what just happened. And her response became, ouch, you know, I was just rejected and none of that is the truth of what's going on. And so that's. An example of just really dismantling how things can go and rebuilding it to a new way to connect and love each other.

Bill: Yeah, sounds like you did some exploring that helped her to reframe and see things in a different way. And when you were sharing that just now, it reminded me of something that Byron Katie says all the time. And that is that forgiveness is realizing that what you thought happened did not.

Paula: That's that's pretty accurate. Yes, that's that describes this situation pretty

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Marty, I'm going to see you've been sitting and let me ask you the questions here for a while. I want to give you an opportunity to jump in here.

Marty: Well, I'm curious if it's something you care to talk about. Given, like you said, that we're always in relationship, but then there are these times and places where We get victimized or we feel like we're being victimized, you know, or there's misunderstandings rather than communicate how can we begin to sort this out? Like, what do we look for, um, in institutions in, you know, in our marriages and in such that we can have them, you know, relational intelligence, rather than fall into those patterns that are disempowering.

Paula: hmm. Mm hmm That's such a great question and it can be you know, kind of a lot to unpack depending on the situation but what I like to tell my clients is to the first place to check is with your emotions

Marty: Mm

Paula: be able To identify what's going on and to almost use it like an alarm clock. So imagine you're going along and, and you're maybe in a state of peace or calm. Everything is kind of right with the world, but then something shifts. Maybe stress enters fear, frustration, to learn to become aware of what's happening within you and to take that pause and to check in with yourself. What is going on? What am I feeling? And that's the beginning of the exploration. And from there, what are some of the thoughts that are feeding this emotion and to pause there? Is this thought a fact? Or is it an interpretation?

Marty: Mm hmm.

Paula: And that is a great place to begin.

Marty: Yeah, sometimes it's hard to tell. We think we've got facts we're working with, and they're really interpretations. I'm just, I'm also curious, um, about what would you say to somebody who's just like, well, you know, this thing about emotions being the, the touchstone, the, the, you know, the thing to look to, like, how do I know that that's not misleading? I mean, I've always been taught that facts are important and, you know. That I, I need to conform to my corporate structure. Otherwise, I'm not going to make a living. I'm not going to get ahead in life. Like this emotional thing. Like, are you sure that's the place to start? What if somebody, what would you say?

Paula: Yeah, you know, a lot of people, we have been socialized to really ignore our own emotions and what's going on. And as a result, I would say there are so many of us that are Wandering around, unaware of what we're actually feeling and if you, I don't know if you notice, but a lot of times if you ask someone how they feel about something, what they're really, their response is really their thoughts and not every, an emotional response at all. And so I think there's a big disconnect and, um, and I think for back to your question, facts are important. But what gets in the way are our interpretations. It's not the facts that are getting in the way.

Marty: Right.

Paula: It's our interpretations.

Marty: And those are probably driven, at least in part, by our emotions. I

Paula: They bounce back and forth kind of like ping pong going back and forth between Emotions and thoughts and they can build on each other and it impact each other. Yeah

Marty: mean, I think for some people, sometimes, it could be, it could be kind of a scary proposition. Like, if I, if I follow my emotions, I might have to turn my life upside down. Like, I put up with a lot, you know, and I've worked really hard and all that sort of commitment to, you know, that, that corporate structure. Or maybe it's just, you know, a. overly masculine husband, whatever it might be that has us think, Oh, gosh, I can't go there. It's, it's, it puts me in a major overhaul if I would have followed my

Paula: and Possibly but I want to pause at something that you said I noticed you said follow my emotions Maybe not maybe not Following your emotions

Marty: Mhm.

Paula: in just explore get curious. What's going on? You I think where we can get in trouble is when we follow the story we might be making up and it may not be based in truth or fact.

Marty: Right. Right.

Paula: For example, myself, when I was in the corporate world, I had this belief, this story that I was powerless. And that I had no choices here. I was a new mom. I had a young child at home who I wanted to be more involved in his life. And I had the story that work was dictating my time and how many hours I had to commit to work and that I had no choices and that they were the first priority in my life.

Marty: Mhm. Mhm.

Paula: turned out to be true.

Bill: I certainly am enjoying this. I, I wrote a little note here that I'm going to refer to now. This kind of has this taking a little bit of a turn. Um, so relational intelligence, do I, and then there's positive intelligence and, uh, they go with like PQ. There's emotional intelligence. That's EQ. There's intelligence quotient. That's IQ. That was the first Q. So I'm wondering if you're going to have our Q.

Paula: RQ, help me out. Oh, relational intelligence. I'm thinking sports car, um, which maybe that is a good metaphor, you know, rev up your engine and be, have this high relational intelligence. Can you imagine being able to connect with others in a deep and meaningful way, um, to increase your ability to communicate in a more authentic way. to increase your awareness to yourself, to yourself, emotions, others, emotions. Um, all of those are pieces of relational intelligence. Um, empathy, um, your ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. Um, conflict resolution, be able to own your own responsibility within conflict. All of these are pieces. Pieces to the puzzle that create this relational intelligence.

Bill: Yes. I was just going to comment that up until my current marriage, Kathy and I got married in 13. We met in 11. And, and, uh, it's such a great relationship only because it's I recognized what a wrecking ball I was in relationships and, and was committed to doing enough of my own work that I turned into, turned into someone that was capable of having connection, of being attuned, of, of being aware of the other person and less concerned about the other person. About what was going on over here for me, because there was less going on over here for me, you know, that I, that I needed to be concerned about, you know, and so, uh, when I think about relation and relational intelligence, um, and this isn't coming from a critical part at all, it's just kind of for me acknowledging this is the way it used to be. I was a real dummy when it came to relationships. I was a real dummy because I believe I didn't really have healthy relationship modeled for me. I didn't, I wouldn't have known what it looked like, and even if I'd seen it from a distance, I wouldn't have known if that's what I was seeing. In fact, I might have even said, you know, I think they're pretending. That can't be real. And, and if I ever saw anything that looked like something I'd aspire to, like a true connection, the best I could have done would be to perform it rather than to authentically execute it. I'm guessing that that's kind of what you're helping your clients do is to move from from no modeling or or very little modeling of what is relational intelligence to knowing what it is. And then to move from that, not to perform it, but to actually authentically be it,

Paula: That's

Bill: would you say

Paula: That's right. Yeah. That's, I think that's well, well said. And I think it starts with yourself and, and being aware of yourself. But then I also heard you say something else in this, in your most, in your current relationship, I also heard you talk about like you are focused on Is to your partner and less on you and, and it sounds like that has been a powerful piece for you too.

Bill: it is? I mean, there's a slippery slope there. I recognize that, you know, in the realm of codependency, and I don't know if that's a part of the language that used in your coaching or not. It's old, archaic language now, but in that realm, um. it's, it can be an indication of an unhealthy relationship. If I, if I, um, put off what I want and what I need and, and my preferences and I just go, I'm a yes man, I'm a nice guy. Then that, that really is an unfulfilling presence or being to bring into a relationship for the other person. So, so when I say slippery slope, yes, I'm thinking less of myself in this relationship, but not, okay. Not, at the cost of, of myself,

Paula: That's right. right. Yeah. Um,

Marty: about how your life changed since, since that transition and this getting coach then becoming a coach. I, so I'm taking it that that has changed your relations in your family and elsewhere too. Ah,

Paula: Starting with my marriage, you know, at, at even the decision to leave my corporate job and, uh, venture off by myself. I somehow was coming from a place of. Asking for permission. Rather than standing in my own power and talking about what I believed in and what I, um, would like to create and would like to do. And just changing, owning my own power rather than giving it all away by saying, can I do this?

Marty: mm hmm.

Paula: So that was one of the first giant steps. And.

Marty: it's really clear. I love that you start with that because, um, the people, I think people can get like, wow, that is very different. Like, may I please versus, Hey, here's what I stand for. This is what's important to me. And you know, and I'd like your buy in, I suppose.

Paula: yeah, partnership versus this on unequal that I was used to performing in, in a less than in, you know, in a off kilter partnership and learning what partnership really looked like and what it meant and, and practicing it. Stepping up to work and, um, asking for what I wanted at my job and being willing to walk away if they wouldn't give it to me, which I did, which was scary. It did. It did. So yeah, it forced me into the deep end.

Bill: it must've been bad enough for you.

Paula: Yeah.

Bill: It just was hard to tolerate and endure anymore. Right?

Paula: Yeah. It sure was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It felt, it actually had become quite toxic.

Bill: So the fear of taking that risk and Stepping into the abyss is the way I envision it

Paula: Mm hmm.

Bill: This is what I know. I don't like it, but it's security. It's it's predictable

Paula: That's right.

Bill: And I keep saying yes to it just because it's so scary to step away from it

Paula: That's right.

Bill: But then one day you did

Paula: That's right. That's right. And it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. And from that place, I was able to honor more of my values and who I am. Um, I was able to really commit to being the kind of mom I wanted to be and, um, and, and all of what I've learned in coaching to be able to apply it as I was raising my son. And, um, Yeah, it's almost like I felt like I got a clean slate and began living the life I want to live.

Marty: Now, it sounds like your husband was very receptive, and, and people around you, like, they liked the new you. Um,

Paula: let me just say before, before, I had that major shift of, this is what I want to do. And I was coming from a place of, I don't know, can I do this? He was thinking, I put him into fear and he's like, no, I don't think we should do this. No, no. And so

Marty: You were very convincing. You were powerful in this negative way. Right,

Paula: shifted into really, you know, stepping into myself, without even knowing it, that impacted him, which impacted us. But imagine that was one step, but then continuing to practice that, you know, over, over days, weeks, months, years, you know, it's not just a flip of the switch and, Done. It's a practice.

Marty: right.

Bill: What has surprised you, Paula, the most about yourself as you've stepped into your power?

Marty: Great question.

Paula: That's a great question. Yes. What has surprised you? Um,

Marty: I want to ask you that question too, Bill.

Paula: yeah, that I think that I'm as strong as that I, that I am, that I'm as powerful as I am. I mean, that was such a surprise to me. That I can create versus just follow.

Bill: Does it surprise you that you are as intuitively accurate as you are?

Paula: yeah. I didn't, I didn't know that either. Yes.

Bill: I'm just thinking about some of the coaching that I've gotten from you in our mastermind group the last few weeks and how just bullseye direct and accurate it was. And what I mean by that is not that you were directful, direct in a blunt, blungeoning way by any means. That's just not you. You have the ability to hear what I and others around me don't hear or see, and then to deliver that in the form of, uh, an offer. This is something to look at rather than, Hey, this is what's true about you, which would of just invite defenses.

Paula: Hmm.

Bill: Yeah, it is so skillful. And, uh, if I might say, um, and if you want me to have this edited out, I can remove it if you don't want to talk about this. But recently you mentioned that your husband noticed your power in this more positive way. I'm surprised by it. I believe what I heard from you was that. He realized just how powerful you are and what a great coach you are.

Paula: I think I know what you're referring to. Um, so I, I do all my coaching from home. I work from home and he had been home and, um, kind of observing my day and, and yeah, had a new respect for what I do and how I do it. Is that what you mean though?

Bill: It is. And you know, what inspired that comment or that question was when Marty pointed out, look how powerful you were in a negative way. You know, when you were moving out of the corporate world and you had him sold on the idea that you couldn't, you didn't dare make that leap.

Paula: Right. Right.

Bill: And it's so cool. It's so cool now to have that now 180 degrees just completely turned over and he's seeing how powerful you are because you took that leap.

Paula: Yeah. And, and just seeing the impact it also has had on my son, he's so proud of what I do. He tells all his friends and, um, and they all get excited about it too.

Marty: What are ways that people who are interested in Being relationally intelligent could like be working with them, practicing, you know, look, what, what could they surround themselves with? What could they, how could they get in that flow?

Paula: Um, they should hire me as their coach is what they should do.

Marty: That's great. I mean, I know you're going to say something more too, but just while we're here, how would they get in touch with you? Right? Let's make good on that. Okay,

Paula: that's still under construction, but Paula life coach. com I believe is the

Bill: You must not visit your website very often.

Paula: Not enough. Um, can find me on LinkedIn. Um, and

Marty: LinkedIn. Okay.

Paula: yeah,

Marty: Great. Great. I don't, maybe there isn't an answer to this question, but, um, what else would, if I wanted to start practicing at this and get better at it.

Paula: I,

Marty: Mm-hmm

Paula: I think, yeah, the first step is, is to be able to identify where you want to get better. Who is it that you want? Um, where are you feeling stuck? Is it in your relationship with, uh, You know, your partner with your children, with your siblings, with your coworkers, with your boss, with the people who work for you, where are you frustrated? And to start with identifying that there is a gap and then rather notice where you put blame, where you're blaming others and you're putting the cause outside of yourself.

Bill: can I pause this there? I wanna jump in. So say somebody does, does begin to rec, what do you mean? Where I'm, cause where, what do you mean? Where I'm putting it in, causing this? It's clear,

Marty: I mean, most people are gonna be like, it's their fault.

Bill: it's, well, listen, can, if I, if you don't mind, I wanna just share just maybe a two minute story about, about my second marriage. I was absolutely convinced that she was delusional because she was constantly blaming me. And I was the nicest guy he ever met. I would never argue with anybody except her. And the only reason I would argue with her because she was so wrong about me. and and so really I was convinced that it was all her fault. Interestingly, She was convinced that it was all my fault. Neither of us had the capacity, therefore not the willingness to say, okay. It's like if we, if, if either of us would have said, yeah, this is, this is a little bit of what I bring to the dysfunction of our relationship. I think we both feared, I know I did, that we would have been annihilated by the other. We had gone way past any experience of loving each other and being loving toward each other, and we were now at each other's throats competing. That marriage was doomed to fail, and it did. However, had one of us been able to Let's just say it was a different fairytale world where we both somehow found the ability and made the commitment to see where it is, where is it that I'm contributing to the dysfunction of the relationship? Where is it that I'm wrong now? What do you do

Marty: So that sounds like we could generalize that and say, here's a good thing to practice toward being relationally intelligent. Always ask yourself, how am I contributing to either the joy or the dysfunction in what's going on here? What's

Bill: And my question is, let's let my question is, okay, so I find something. I find that, for example, I'm withholding in my second marriage. I did this all the time. I am withholding. I've got all the reasons in the world to justify withholding, and if I give it to her, she's just going to shoot my head off. But I am withholding. See, I couldn't even acknowledge that that was a thing that I was contributing to the dysfunction of the relationship because I was justified in doing it. But the fact is, now I come, I come clean and I say, okay, at least to myself, all right, part of what's happening here is I'm withholding and that's crazy making for her. Now what? Now what do I do, Paula?

Paula: I think, look at why, first of all, what are you withholding? And then look at what's, what's dangerous? I mean, there's so much to crack open there.

Bill: Oh, I see. So, okay, if we roleplay a few minutes and then, and then we need to wrap up, I think. All right, let's just say it's me in that marriage. And I, you're coaching me and I come to the session and I say, okay, Paula, finally I see it. I am withholding. And my wife told me that it's crazy making for her. She said it's gaslighting. I don't like that at all. I don't, I'm not going to go so far as to say I'm gaslighting her. I don't even think I know what that means, but I can see that I'm withholding. I'm not giving her all the information. So is that what you mean? I'm

Paula: So Bill, when you are in that place where you're holding back, what, what is it that you're so afraid of?

Bill: Have you met my wife? Well, to me, she looks like a big ferocious monster in terms of when we're in conflict. And she asks me a question, or we're in a conversation, and I'm afraid, then I, I, I, there's more I can say, but I don't say it because I'm afraid that she's going to turn into that big ferocious monster. And, and she doesn't get physical with me, but she says some of the meanest things that I've ever felt in my life.

Paula: I'm afraid that I'm going to give her to

Bill: work with.

Paula: So if you were to turn that upside down, the something ferocious monster that she is, what is she afraid of?

Bill: What is she afraid of? That seems like such an odd question to me. Let's see. What is she afraid of? She doesn't seem afraid. She seems Like aggressive and angry, but what is she afraid of? I don't know. Maybe, I don't know, losing control.

Paula: An sure. It might be a starting point. An enter in place with her because obviously that meanness, that aggressiveness, the monster that you're seeing isn't the true her. It's not her best self. It's not her true self. And so what you're seeing is some form of defense mechanism, coping mechanism, maybe even a survival mechanism. So what's she trying to survive? What's so scary?

Bill: well, it's interesting you say that because That makes sense to me and I can also see where where I I'm in my survival mechanism Out of fear that it's going to happen even even when it's not happening and interestingly that actually invites that my holding back Invites that ferocious monster that she becomes at least to me Yeah, Yeah, So you're saying that's the place to begin to ask her where she's what she's afraid of or to ask myself what I'm afraid of.

Paula: Well, it might not be safe, Bill. I, you know, we're kind of making this up. This was a prior relationship from years ago. I'm not there to know, and it's not even current right now. And, and I'm not suggesting that there's a formulaic way to go about it. I think every situation is individual. And, um, Every, you know, people are individual, situation, relationships are individual, really hard to say. And at that time in your life, it might have been too dangerous to ask that kind of question at that time in your life. And with what the, the tools that you had available to you and the tools that she had available to her. So you can see it's, it's just, it's not a single formula.

Bill: No, that's right. And I'm so happy to hear you say that because it can't be. It isn't one size fits all. By the way, retrospectively, I can say, um, she was afraid of feeling all the pain that was stuck in her from a really traumatic and dysfunctional childhood. That's why we matched so well, because neither one of us have done enough of healing to be in a relationship of true connection yet. Thanks for

Marty: you say, would you say in that case, Paula, that

Paula: yes,

Marty: you could at least be comforting because we know what's driving it is fear, or would you not go that

Paula: in Yes, you might be able to that's the empathy piece. You might be able to step in with compassion and rather than being so, you know, the response being withholding or Getting your own rage is maybe starting with some understanding of her and being able to you know Again, tap into some, a different emotion, rather noticing your own fear. I would imagine if you're withholding, there's some fear present for you That's you know, going to, that's going to give you some information about what's going on and seeing if you can access some of that empathy and compassion and enter back into the arena, more your true self. Your best version of self. I would imagine when the two of you first met, there was a whole lot more of that present.

Bill: True, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for playing that with me, that was a little risky, a little dangerous. Well,

Marty: So much for being with us today. It was a beautiful, enlightening discussion and maybe you'll come back sometime.

Paula: Sure, sure. It's always fun to hang out with you guys. I love it.

Bill: Yeah, I'd like to learn more. Um, as you continue to work with your clients, Paula and have more success, uh, some more stories that, that you feel comfortable sharing about, about working with your clients. This is the leadership coaching podcast. And those that are used to hearing us often throughout the podcast episodes referring to leadership, we didn't do a lot of that today. So let's just name that, that the leadership that, that this represents that we're talking about right about right now is leading in the relationship, not one leader instead of the other, but sharing the leadership of the relationship. It's also leading ourselves, I would say, leading to, to the yeses that, that we can find within ourselves, which means sometimes we have to say no. It takes a lot of courage and it takes self leadership to be able to do that self leadership from the perspective of the internal family systems model, as well as just the common, uh, use of the term self leadership. Uh, yeah, I see you as such a leader making such a difference for people, Paula, in, in, uh, in your coaching and their, in their lives. And so delighted, delightful always to hear, uh, about. The difference you're making it with everybody in your life that that to me reflects your internal leadership and the commitment that you have your own personal growth and development. I appreciate that about you. I guess we'll see you both Friday.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Buy?