Marty: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Leadership Coaching Podcast with me, Martin Kettelhut, and my accomplice here, Bill Tierney, who is a certified IFS Practitioner. And so we enjoy bringing our different perspectives to lots of different coaching questions. And today, um, we're going to talk about the seven habits of highly effective leaders, many people have heard of the book, seven, Habits of highly effective people was written by Stephen Covey number of years ago. I'd have to look up the exact date, but, um, this is a play on that. And I begin, I begin with the first one, the first of the seven highly effective people. of highly effective leaders is one of Covey's habits of highly effective people.

Bill: Well, why don't I read it? You put out a newsletter today and it's a short paragraph. So why don't I read that number seven habit of highly effective leadership and then let's just have you comment on it. Maybe that'll generate some questions for me.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: So here we go. Um, highly effective leadership empowers. Period. Highly effective leadership empowers. Regardless whether I'm in a leadership position, in quotes, if I'm not having an empowering effect but want to, then I must seek first to understand and then be understood which is number five of Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Leadership recognizes that the partnership slash team slash community's growth goes hand in hand with my own growth. You know, I was just, um, talking to someone this morning. This is how long it takes me to get to the IFS model. About how when we recognize that we are made up of these parts that are so strangely independent personalities, subpersonalities within us that seem to have their own perspective, their own way of thinking, their own agendas.

Marty: Don't energy.

Bill: Exactly. That it's tempting. To when first realizing that I had parts, it was tempting for me to say, now, Oh, well, that's what I need to do then I need to go to that part of me and get that part to change so that I can change this result, outcome or experience in my life that I'm not happy with. But that doesn't work. It doesn't work with parts any better than it works with people. And what I was telling this person that I was in conversation with today was that we need to first seek to understand before attempting to be understood. So I think that ties right in with what you're what you're talking about here

Marty: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I think this goes against and that's right. Not exactly the energy I want in that phrase. It, it, um, it might serve as a kind of wake up to many of us, myself included, who have been taught to generally think of leaders as being the ones who. We need to understand, like, they've got all the goods, right? We just need to understand that. And so, and when we're in a leadership position, we feel that way, too. Like, oh, my God, I, I've got to know my stuff. I've got to know what I'm going to say. I got to have this all figured out and planned so that I can lead. And this goes against that. This is. No, no, no. Seek to understand what's going on first. In fact, is, this is one of the, it's not exactly the same words, but it is exactly the same, um, sentiment and principle as one of the main things that John Collins, or Jim Collins said. Constitutes a good, uh, sorry, a great company versus a good company, right?

Bill: Forgot all about that book. That's a great book

Marty: Yeah, I had forgotten it so much that I checked it out of the library to read again.

Bill: Hold it up again. The name of the book is Good to great by jim collins. Yeah, i'll have to re put that in show notes in case you want If you haven't read that book before I highly recommend it

Marty: the, the guys who come in as CEO and say, look, we're going to do it this way. Or I really like this. I want it this way. You know, that sort of pre-arranged agenda, um, doesn't, it doesn't lead to great companies. Mm-Hmm.

Bill: I have a client who I just spoke to this week who Always talks to me about the stuff that's going on in relationships for him

Marty: Mm-Hmm.

Bill: Personal relationships. But this week he brought up for the first time, a problem that he's having at work, which, which is not what clearly is not a pattern for him, but it was a standout experience that he had enough to bring it to my attention because he was reporting what, what kind of energy he was bringing into our coaching session.

Marty: Mm-Hmm.

Bill: he was surprised. He said, and reported that he had an interaction with his boss. This guy's an engineer. Uh, he had an interaction with his boss who said, I want you to do this and I want you to do it in this way. And I wanted you to want you to do it by this time.

Marty: Mm-Hmm.

Bill: his response was, well, that doesn't make sense. Why would I? We've been doing it this way. This is why we do it this way. This is what works. And this is how long it takes to get to do it. So now you're coming to me today and telling me you want me to change that. Tell me why. Why? Why does it make sense to change that? And the boss, the boss said, none of your business. Why?

Marty: Same.

Bill: Because I just say to do it do it because I'm your boss and I say to do it Well, you can imagine that this did not land well for my client

Marty: right? Yeah. And you know, it. It's like the, the power that's available in working together just got destroyed. Like now you, now you've got a split nation, so to speak, right? The, he doesn't, he isn't bought in. He, he, he has, he isn't informed. He's supposed to just. Be a machine that does what the boss, like, this is very destructive.

Bill: Yes, it is and it's going to take some repair In order for this to be renewed now, fortunately my client tells me he's got a good relationship with his boss There must be something odd going on that he's not privy to yet But what he did in his wisdom my my client said I need to take a break from this conversation I don't like the way it's going and I don't like the way i'm going to react if I stay in it So I'm going to take a break away from it. I'm not going to do what you just asked me to do. And let's pick this up again tomorrow. And, uh, I'm, I'm real interested to hearing how that goes. But of course, if the, if this particular leader, his boss were to be practicing, uh, habit number seven, seek to understand before being, seeking to be, to, to be understood or rather than being understood that conversation would have gone dramatically differently.

Marty: Yeah. You know, it's like, there's a lot of this going on in political conversations right now, which I don't want to get into, but just to say, you see this a lot when, you know, somebody says something like, well, just close the border or something like that, or just leave the border wide open. Nobody's saying either of those things. But my point is that. Wait a minute, shouldn't we seek to understand what's going on here first? Like, why is there a problem? Because then we could fix it! opposed to just having some You know, you know, agenda that doesn't, that doesn't, it doesn't serve the economy or, you know, or it doesn't serve the families that are coming over. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't help people get to the things that they're looking for on the planet.

Bill: Yeah. Well, it appears to be all about power. Who's going to have it and who's going to get it. Yeah. And this, this habit of, it's not effective leadership. It, it's, it certainly isn't sustainable.

Marty: Interesting show I was watching last night. It's on Netflix called The Diplomat. I've only watched two episodes now, but, um, Very, it's very interesting when you look at it from the perspective of leadership, the, the diplomat, the woman who plays the diplomat, she's not your typical leader, Right. But she does a great job of leading. It's a great show. And, uh, so. There was a just to make a long story short last in the episode I, saw last night, the president of the United States in this show wants her to do something that is, you know, just not in her integrity. She's not going to do it. And so she says, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm out of here. Like, you know, I'd rather lose the job but the president finds a way, you know, through other people to get her to say yes to it. And, and then he's going to take off in this helicopter, you know, Air Force One to go on to do something else. And before he leaves, he runs over to her. You know, there's all this helicopter noise going on and he yells in her ear, I heard that you said you were going to quit. I hate that shit. Don't do that anymore. You know, like that's going to make her want to serve under.

Bill: Right. I, by the way, I agree. It's a great show. It's been about a year, I think, since I've watched it, but you're, you're right. It's very well done. Shall we move on to number six? That was number seven.

Marty: Sure, sure.

Bill: I wish I could do the Casey case invoice. And it's number six.

Marty: You did.

Bill: As soon as highly effective leadership senses the slightest disintegration of the symbiosis between work and life, it immediately corrects course. You cannot work well if you have no quality of life from which to draw integral strength. Work life balance.

Marty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it just, it surprises me that that's like a nicety that people, you know, 10 years after they've taken on the position, the firm that they've always wanted to work. But then, then they start to say, gosh, you know, maybe I could Work some work life balance into my life. Like, it ought to be there. Always from the get go. Same thing with new people in the workforce. You know, they're like, well, I had to take the job and work in 70 hours a week. And, you know, but eventually I'll be able to get some balance. back in my life. Like don't take that job.

Bill: So what would, what would cause someone to take on that attitude or, or that belief that they have to, that they can't do self care? They have to do more than they want to do or they have to do something, do something that they don't want to do and trade in self care for that. Why would, why would someone do that?

Marty: Well, one of the main reasons would be scarcity. Like if I don't, I'm going to be.

Bill: So fear.

Marty: I have to do this, you know, there's so few jobs and, um, and, uh, I really need the money that that would be a motivator to say, okay,

Bill: Mm

Marty: I'll get balanced later. I just need some money in the bank.

Bill: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Marty: It's very compelling actually.

Bill: Depending on the economy and the demand for employment and whether it's an employee or employers market that that would be an easy trap to fall into.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: the problem with that is if you're not taking care of yourself, you're not going to perform at work

Marty: that's right.

Bill: as well.

Marty: You know, I've been, mind has been changed about this kind of issue by a couple of articles that I read. They're cited and at the end of my book, too, by the way, um, that we're scientists, not just opinion makers have looked at those Earth's resources and the number of people on the planet and thought about, like, how we could really rearrange things to take care of everybody. Like there is no scarcity in God's universe, like there, there is a way we're just not thinking that way. We're thinking, oh, you know, if anybody takes any of my stuff, then, you know, I'm not going to allow that because there's, there's just not enough to go around this kind of thinking and all we have to do is shift the way we think and we could, we could all, you know, Be like Matt Damon on Mars. We'll find a way, you know, but it's, it's a commitment. It's a commitment to workability. Or a commitment to, you know, unworkability, you know, like not, not having enough. Well, you know, you might have to loosen your way of thinking and, and come at it in a very different way, but assume there's more than enough and, and get it.

Bill: So habit number six reflects that getting it, assuming that there's enough. There's enough, enough time. There's enough jobs. There's enough. There's enough. I can, it's okay. I can, I can go ahead and I can take care of myself.

Marty: Right. I, yeah, otherwise you set yourself up to be less than prepared. You know, the strength comes from finding the right position for yourself, the one that you get to do what you're best at and you get paid what you're worth, like all that has to work. Um, but if you're, you know, if you're over capacity and not paid enough, It's just, you know, it'll last a couple of days, but then it's over. It's not good. You're not going to be able to stand it. You will, you will be unhappy, stressed out, die early. Like why?

Bill: So it's an inefficient strategy, which again reminds me of IFS and PARTS. Protectors. Have share with other parts within the system, common beliefs and such a scarcity and and based on like, if the belief within a constellation of parts that's that is working together is there's not enough, then a protector might step in and say, well, then what there is to do is make sure that you shine above every other potential employee out there. You shine by putting in more hours. By going the extra mile, by being the last person to leave the office, by doing any job that, that is demanded and needed, uh, and being the first one there in the morning and always, always being reliable and just being the best employee in that way. Of course that, and this is true of burdened parts of a system too, that the strategy often, uh, produces just exactly the opposite of what it's designed to accomplish.

Marty: Right.

Bill: I'm going to put all these hours in so that I can keep this job and get myself security. You mentioned just a moment ago, but if there's enough, so if there isn't enough money and if you're putting in too many hours, I don't know if that there is enough money to, to justify giving away the quality of life in order to trade it in for security. And in the end, the security is lost anyhow because you've lost your health. You've lost your self respect, and you're probably going to lose your job because you're going to be operating outside your capacity and not be able to keep up what you've trained your boss to expect that they can do. Get from you.

Marty: That's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I grant you, it might take a little creativity, but you. know, get with your people, get with your friends and get brainstorming, like get creative. There's no reason anybody should have to be suffering.

Bill: Shall we go on to number five?

Marty: Okay.

Bill: Highly effective leadership defines success in terms of alignment with true self. As you know, I love this one, uh, alignment with true self, bringing that quality. That is one's most essential nature and purpose in this life to whatever one does reference pages 78 through 80 of your first book. Listen till you disappear to learn how purpose driven leadership saves time, money and stress while engendering the enjoyment connection and freedom. You want to talk about that one?

Marty: Yeah. I mean, one of the first things that I'm trying to distinguish there is Oftentimes, success is something external and abstract, like a number, you know, 8 million, right? Or something like that. And this is very different. This is saying, no, success is when things, things are working when, you know, when you get to be yourself, right, when you get to, um, be with the people that you want to be with. This alignment of who you are and what your true self needs and wants, that's what's going to make the 8 million appear right? Because you'll be Well, you'll have the right energy, you'll be well connected, like all the things that your true self needs to flourish will be present. As a right, as opposed to making the goal that the 8 million at any expense, right? Your integrity, your relationships, your health, like, it's, you know, you have a choice. You can, you can either be true to self. and and that 8 million comes, you know, out of the harmony that you have created with your world, or, you know, you can rip yourself apart and, and your family and your community in order to get to that 8 million.

Bill: Well, and another, another way, additional prism to look at, um, lens through, through which to look at this is that the 8 million that you're pointing at is predetermined as what it will take to achieve something.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: So I think I'm going to need 8 million in order to feel or experience. Or accomplish this what I'm what I'm in finding and continue to find both in myself and with my clients Is that if I can if I can find my way or help my clients find their way to their true authentic self now they're able to tap into innate resources that are that are otherwise inaccessible

Marty: Mm

Bill: and with access to those innate resources, which seem to to include clarity of purpose Vision Compassionate inclusion, uh, generosity. And these, these are like qualities and resources that are authentic, not generated.

Marty: Right. Mm

Bill: from true, authentic self, this is just who we become. And, and in, in that, as we're tapping into these resources, the wisdom necessary for where to place the next foot seems to show up step follow to step fall,

Marty: It does.

Bill: and it takes us directly where we need to go to accomplish what that inner sense of purpose has been pointing us towards That some of our parts might have said, Oh, well, that means that we need to 8 million or that that it needs to happen in this particular way. Whereas true authentic self is open, is flexible, and may have a plan, just like you need a ladder to climb up to a roof, you need a plan to begin to move in a particular direction.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: But, from true authentic self, that plan can quickly and easily be abandoned when, from clarity, we see that the overall achievement, the overall objective, I should say, can be achieved in a much easier, and usually simpler, way that flows forward. And, and, and serves all.

Marty: Yeah, that word true in this is is so important. It's like that, because as you point in, as you pointed out, like it's some part that thinks that this is what I need. And so then you're working in untruth. And so it's like, you're not gripping the road of reality, you know, you're, you're, there's going to be a lot of wasted effort in that. But whereas if you're adjusting to the truth all. the time, that's, you're going to have a much easier time of it. Get, get the results that you want.

Bill: Adjusting to the truth all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. That's, that's a, boy, that's a, an entire episode right there. Adjusting to the truth all the time. Kind of like a, An airplane does never going in the same direction to reach its destination, constantly adjusting which direction it's pointed to at a predetermined destination. A lot that goes into that, of course, you know, the earth is moving. It's not, it's not going to be in the same place as it was when we left.

Marty: Right. Right.

Bill: So we have to continue to make adjustments.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I don't know if the truth is moving, but reality is.

Marty: No, the truth isn't right. That's great. The situation is changing, but

Bill: Yes. Yes. Anything more you want to say about that?

Marty: I think that? some people are afraid to commit to this habit because they think that they're going to wind up being poor and um, and they they're not convinced by the argument Well, what if you're poor but fulfilled? They want the money too, right? And, and that's part of what is fulfilling for them. And so I think it's important to stress there's a hard way to get there and an easeful way to get there.

Bill: I'm looking behind me, but I realized my book is my copy of your book is in the other room. Um, leadership as relation.

Marty: Yeah, I have a copy handy.

Bill: Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. And I'm just thinking of your chapter on money written by money. Really? Well done. Uh, and money makes just this excellent point. I am not the end essentially is what I got from. I am not the objective. I am a means to whatever objective it is that you're trying to achieve. I'm, I exist only because the idea was that I was supposed to make it easier than having to haul, you know, stacks and stacks of buffalo hides across the country in order to exchange it for a can of beans. Or whatever.

Marty: Exactly. Well said. Well said.

Bill: Alright, shall we move on to number four?

Marty: Okay. Yes. It's

Bill: four. Highly effective leadership concentrates on, end quotes, knock your socks off service, end quote. In Ron, how do you pronounce his last name? Zemke? Ron Zemke's more than a quarter century old words. Trust the habit of serving all of life.

Marty: Maybe there should be a that in there. Trust that the habit of serving All of life.

Bill: All right. Trust that the habit of serving all of life will attract the right relationships. Mend any mistakes permanently. Respond to everyone's needs, including your own, and leave the world in better condition than you found. Knock your socks off service.

Marty: Did you ever read that book? That was,

Bill: I did not.

Marty: I see that was required reading. When I first, when I first left the Academy and went into business, everybody's like, you have to read this book. This is, you know, this is like Leviticus. You have to read it.

Bill: That's the name of the book. Uh, coaching. So we got, uh,

Marty: your socks off service. That's name.

Bill: that is it. Knock, knock your socks off service. Service recovery. The Service Edge, Service America, Coaching Knock Your Socks Off Service, Managing, so there's a whole series of books around this, began, looks like they began in 1985. And Ron appears to be a real geek not a critic,

Marty: It's so true, though. I mean, whenever I get into a bundle, you know, like, I get a littleness led like I want to, you know, I want to get more out of the deal, or, um, I don't know whether to tell the client. What I think they should do rather than having them generate it or all kinds of these sort of coaching Eddie's that we get into out of the flow and into an, you know, circle, um, service is always the answer. Just go serve and it'll it. will turn out best be of service.

Bill: Yes. You know, who else writes about this is Rich Litvin and Steve Chandler in The Prosperous Coach. That's essentially the message of that book is go serve your client, go serve your prospects.

Marty: Then everything else will get handled, you know, with respect to that. It's, it's, it's when you're not serving that the problems arise.

Bill: Yeah, this is the paradox of of an earlier principle that you laid down here, which is self care. It's um, it looks a little bit like self care, but it's not that that's not what we're talking about. When in other words, what I'm hearing from you is that when. The priority is placed on what am I getting out of this interaction? What am I getting out of my participation in this relationship? Then things, that's when things go sour. Whereas how can I serve to a, to a point? I mean, we can also get into codependence here pretty easily. Your, your needs are more important than mine is not true. What's true is I've got to meet my own needs to the best of my ability so that I can serve you as well. If I'm not serving myself, I can't serve you.

Marty: That's true. That's true. Yeah.

Bill: But if that baseline is being met, if I'm getting enough sleep, if I'm, if I've got, if I don't have to worry about shelter over my head or food on my plate, if I'm doing everything that I can to provide for me and for my own, now that's off my mind. It's not occupying any of my inner resources that, that, that otherwise could be used to serve you.

Marty: I mean, because you always want to be able to walk away from a transaction, being able to say, well, you know, I, I, I served the client. Um, and so, right. Because if there's any way in which you're holding back or trying to get more or something like that. And it's not, and it's not serving, then, then they, then they're justified in not paying you or working with you, you know, and if you do serve them first, if that's the, then, then they'll, they're going to be happy. They're going to refer you. They're going to more like all the things that you want.

Bill: That's right. Anything more you wanna say about knocks you your socks off service?

Marty: Um, just an, an, uh, an inquiry that starts going in my head, like to me, this is super obvious because it feels to me like. It's just the Christian way of living, and I was raised Christian, and so I'm, I'm, I'm sort of asking myself to go do some research about, you know, would, would, is it also the teaching of the Islam, Islam, you know, that to, to serve for, I mean, it might be because people give their lives Allah's sake, it might very well be universally true as well, not just Christian, I, I, you know, Was taught this principle by my religious upbringing.

Bill: Now, not to knock any Christian or other religion upbringing, however, I didn't really get this principle until I got my first real job. Part time after school at Rozar's, which is a local grocery store chain based out of Spokane, Washington. I lived in Great Falls, Montana at the time, and, uh, felt like I had won the lottery when I got that job. Um, getting a 1. 85 an hour in 1972, I think it was, uh, after school. And what Rozar's taught their employees was this principle. Knock their socks off with your service. Smile. Oh, and that was so hard for me to do. You know, I'm the 17 year old kid and I'm completely intimidated by people. I don't want to look anybody in the eye. I'm scared to death of people. And Jim Ledbetter the store manager taught me could make eye contact with people, smile and say something like, hello. Believe it or not, Marty, that was one of the hardest things for me to do. I would rather just bury myself in a pallet of peas and stock shelves all day long and never have to look at anybody.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: But, but having teaching me how to do that, something changed inside for me when I realized how people responded to being served in an authentic and sincere way.

Marty: Yeah. This, this is the last and great point you serve others and you will be served. You know, it, it's contagious in the best way.

Bill: As long as you're not serving them so you can be served.

Marty: right? That's true.

Bill: That's back to a

Marty: But what I mean is you serve others and you will be taken care of.

Bill: that's been my experience.

Marty: Which is, you know, um, it's very different from that I got to get mine first and, and, and I'm not going to share kind of attitude. Um, which, which just spreads more selfishness.

Bill: hmm. Mm hmm.

Marty: Whereas service spreads service.

Bill: and competitiveness and comparison. Yeah. All of that. So we're down to about 10 minutes here. We've got three more principles to go through or have. Number three is reactivity is the enemy of forward motion. And it is the, this, it is for this reason that highly effective leadership is always working a well designed plan. Bolded, the word plan bolded. If a plan is to produce the desired results, then along with a strong vision, conditions of satisfaction, practices, and conversations all arranged on a doable timeline, and you make reference to your new book now, page 250 to 261, and leadership as a relation, the plan must be back casted from the end state to today by simply asking what will have to make. Each milestone along the way to success, the inevitable and easeful outcome of the last milestone

Marty: Mm hmm. So this is basically what the, those three episodes that we did with, um, Nora Edelstein were all about. Mm hmm. The project design,

Bill: highly effective leadership has a project designed with the plan and that includes milestones,

Marty: is different from just being in this reactive mode,

Bill: right?

Marty: which I don't know about You but I would see at least 85 percent and that might be generous of the leaders that I'm meeting, you know, these days, they that's, that's the it's. ubiquitous. They are just out fires pulled in many directions. And so there's no forward motion. There's no plan to get, you know, to get somewhere. It's just react, react, react, react, react.

Bill: You know, and the plan does not have to be complex or complicated. It's better if it's not, I just want to show you this. This is an example of my plan and I'm not going to show you the details of it. I just wanted to hold it up there and show you, this is just a checklist of things that I know I want to do that I, that I believe are important to do, that I want, I want to get done. If I find myself falling into the reactive mode, which I often do, then I will finish talking with one client. Return a phone call and then find like, okay, gosh, I got 10 minutes here. What do I do? Um, well, I can check and see if I've gotten a new email. I can respond to that or which is just kind of reactive for I can go to my plan. Oh, the next thing on my list here, and I've got them numbered in order of priority, I see is 1D here. I need to organize assets for flow in my book. Okay. That's what I'll take 10 minutes and get going on that. And now if I do 10 minutes twice a day, let's just say if I get two 10 minute windows, plus the hour that I've got blocked out for this on Friday, that book's going to get written.

Marty: Absolutely. Yeah. Great example. Great example. Yes. And you can see how this mesh as well. I know we gotta watch time how this mesh as well with the other things like, you know, if your mind is on the plan, um, then you're driven by your purpose. And you're, you're growing as a, uh, you know, as opposed to being in, you know, in your, in your head about these fires that are hard to put out.

Bill: ready for number two.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: Countdown to number two. All highly effective leadership is unapologetically selective about whom to do business with. Team members, strategic partners, customers. The price of settling for anyone who will fog a mirror is much greater than the negligible cost of holding out for the right people in the right positions. I love, of all of these, that one got my attention more than any of this morning when I read this newsletter of yours. I could not agree more, working with the right people, being selective about what clients I work with, being selective about what collaborators I work with and commit my time to, being selective about who I partner with, like with you on the, on the podcast, who I spend my time with, how I spend my time, being selective, being discerning. And that's all informed by my purpose and clarity about my priorities.

Marty: right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot more to say about this, but I just want to the 1, the last thing I would say is that you know, I think a lot of these are about prioritizing quality. Yeah. Over quantity over, you know, the the quality of life over the number of great experiences or the number of dollars in your back. It's that. I see that as a as a common theme to a lot of these habits. And so this 1, you know. It might take a little trust, but if you hang on and wait and really, you know, uh, do your due diligence and get the right people working for you, doing the right things for them to do, it'll save you years of frustration and money and time.

Bill: And to get to that point sooner, my experience is that I, I need to do whatever work is required for me to have the clarity to know who that is, to know what it is that I need from them, to know what those values need to be and how they need to be aligned so that when they show up, I recognize them. And when they, when someone else shows up, I recognize they're not a fit. And it's so much easier for me to say no, this doesn't look like it's a good fit.

Marty: Exactly. And it's, by the way, this, I just remembered, this is another one of the points that Jim Collins makes in Good to Great. Get the right people, the right. The first time I heard this was, uh, when I first went into business, I know we're short on time

Bill: We're okay. We got one to go.

Marty: and, um, I didn't know much about business at all. Cause I had been in an academic and, um, to learn, I started interviewing. I interviewed people who were successful in business to just learn, you know, and one of them was a distant uncle of mine. So our. Great grandmothers were sisters and he had a tool and die business in Detroit. And, uh, you know, they made the, in molds, they made plastic pieces that become the dashboards of cars. And, um, he was very successful, probably the wealthiest member of our family, in fact. And, you know, I asked him, what's the secret to your success. And this is exactly what he told me. Hire the right people, treat them well, and that's the secret, he said. Yes.

Bill: That's wonderful. Another reference to the same idea comes from Geno Whitman in his book, Traction. Right butt, right seat.

Marty: Exactly. That's right.

Bill: Okay, we're down to number one.

Marty: Number one, won't surprise people who follow my writing.

Bill: Number one, highly effective leadership begins and ends each day with meditation. The return to reality outside the mind. Say some more about that for those that aren't that familiar with your writing.

Marty: It's there's the, we're, we can be insulated by our own thinking and our own thinking patterns, our own feelings, such that we're not actually gripping the road of reality. I know I used that phrase earlier, but I'm going to use it again. Uh, and when, uh, when you read. When you meditate and put the thoughts on, you know, the back burner for a while, you get in touch with everything that's outside of that. Insularity that you've been like, there, there's more space for one thing, but also, you know, new ideas can come or, you know, uh, new questions even can arise that wouldn't if you were just only relying on what you already have in your head, right? I love that line that the guy who started Virgin Air. What's his name?

Bill: Oh, tip of my tongue. Um,

Marty: Here, Richard Branson.

Bill: we go. Thank you.

Marty: He started Virgin and the whole Virgin group. There's a lot more to it than Virgin Air. When asked what makes him a successful leader? Sums it up in five words. Listen more than you talk. We don't learn, and he goes on to say, we don't learn anything listening to ourselves, listening to our own already thought. We don't learn. So Branson encourages us to listen, right? So you'd see how that fits my whole philosophy

Bill: Absolutely. And, and, and how meditation, what I'm hearing from you, I'm going to read, I'm going to put it in my own words. You tell me if this reflects the idea that meditation basically opens the conduit for downloads.

Marty: Beautifully put, beautifully put.

Bill: So this is these, these are principles, ideas, habits that you've identified your, your book is leadership in, uh, in relation. Uh, someone wants to get direct coaching from you on these principles and these ideas that we've been referring to today. What's the best way for them to get a hold of you?

Marty: So my phone number is 303 747, like the airplane, the 747, 4449,

Bill: And you work out of Colorado. However, you're, you see many of your clients via zoom. So all over the world. Yes.

Marty: Yeah, and, and that telephone number itself is a Skype number, so you, No matter where I am in the world, you only have to dial California, Colorado. But the other, the other way to get in touch with me would be to go to my website, listening is the key. com. And you won't be on the website for more than five, 10 seconds and a little pop up will say schedule an appointment with Dr. Kettlehead and you just click on it.

Bill: Okay, doc. Sounds good. Great conversation. Great article this morning. I'm so glad we, uh, decided to talk about that today

Marty: Thank you for entertaining it.

Bill: and take care.