Bill: Well, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Coaching Podcast with my partner, Dr. Martin Kettelhut, and our special guest today, Norah Edelstein. This is the second attempt at me getting your name right. I've only known you for, what, nine years. I should maybe have it right now. Norah Edelstein, a fellow coach and part of our Friday Morning Coaches Mastermind Group that's been meeting for longer than I've been part of it. How long, Norah? How long, Norah?

Norah: I, I'm maybe 10 years.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So I've been in it for 9 years. Marty, you've been in it for 8, right? 7 or 8?

Marty: Something like that. Yes.

Bill: Yeah. So let's introduce Norah. What do we know about Norah? Norah, I know just because what Norris told me that she graduated from a college from a coaching in 2005. She's been, so she's been coaching for 20 years now. And that she specialize in specializes in ontology, uh, being based coaching. But what I know about Norah is what she brings to our mastermind conversations where we, we show up and say, Hey, I've got a challenge and I'd like to be supported. And some of that support comes from Norah. When I bring my challenges, sometimes it comes from you, Marty. Sometimes it comes from Paula or Jeff, uh, but Norah is an amazing, powerful coach and she likes working with leaders and corporations and, and in those corporations from the receptionist. Uh, and mail room all the way up to the top leader. She also told me before you jumped on Marty that she likes working with people that are moving into their thirties and transitioning into, you know, that what what life looks like when that happens, anything like that. I can add to

Marty: that. I, you know, I've actually used Norah's services myself around this topic for today, which is a project design. And and so that's 1 of the reasons why I'm very happy to have her here today, because I've seen her. I've used her brilliance on this topic and, um, and with great success.

Bill: Norah, how are you doing as we're getting ready to have this conversation? How are you feeling?

Norah: I'm doing great. I'm just so grateful to, well, I'm so grateful to know both of you, um, and to have known you for so long. And I'm just so honored to be asked to be on your podcast and, um, Yeah, I'm excited. And, you know, I was saying in some ways, it's so familiar to be with you because we meet once a week. And so to shift the context to a recorded call is, you know, I don't know if it's different, but, um, I'm just going to relate to it as a conversation that I love having with you guys.

Marty: Great. Yeah. Context is decisive after all.

Norah: Exactly.

Bill: Marty, since you have so actually so recently had an experience with Norah in project design. I think I'd like to hand the baton to you and have you take the lead and let me support you as you kind of interviewed Norah and talk more. Norah mentioned before we hit record and before you signed on that, you know, she, she listened to our, um, part 1 project design and hadn't had a concern that we might be redundant here. And I told her, yeah, we probably could be for sure, but that we could have 30 conversations about project design and the commerce. Each of them would be somewhat different and helpful. So let me hand it off to you. And let me just support the conversation.

Marty: Let me go right to some of the hearts of the matter then, because, um, You know, some of the basics might be, you know, things that people could pick up anywhere. But so, for example, it seems to me, crucial piece in the counts toward the success of a project designs being realized and achieving the results one's looking for has to do with. This ontology piece, the, the way of being as you're writing the plan as you're implementing the pan and where the plan is getting you that way of being is really the fuel that gets us to the goal. I would, I would think. And so I want to ask you, like, do you agree with that? And if so, how, how does 1 ensure that the, um, From conception to, you know, the celebration party, it's imbued with the right ontology.

Norah: Got it. Yeah. So, um, I'm going to give you kind of a long answer. Because that's one of my favorite parts of project design is exactly what you're pointing to. And in fact, I think that's how we came to this idea of having me on the show is because I started talking about project design as a structure for being, and that's for me, the only reason to have a project design. So in my training and Bill had the same training, um, one of the ways. We talk about this idea of being is, well, first of all, just the idea that this is not that foreign in our society today, that who we're being is actually more important in a way than what we have and what we do that. We all, you know, most of society goes through life thinking that if we do the right thing and then have the right certificate degree, um, credentials, then we can finally be the person we've always wanted to be. And ontology turn that turns that equation on its head and says, no, actually it's who we're being that has the biggest impact on our life. And if we're clear on who we're being, then we can take actions from there so that we can have. Things and when those when the doing and the having comes from who we're being

Marty: that

Norah: life is just more fulfilling and satisfying and the ways to frame this idea of being in my training and accomplishment coaching is that we all have a higher self and our language. We call that your essence, which is your true self. Um, 1 of the ways I think of it, sometimes it's. Before I even came into the, my body, it's like who I was, you know, it's just these qualities. I, I have an am that go beyond, um, anything I did last week, you know, or, you know, go beyond my behavior. They're actually who I am. And so there's the essence, which is your true

Marty: beliefs. I would imagine too. Yeah.

Norah: So there's your essence. And then, you know, And then on the flip side of that, we all, as every human being in this model, we say has an essence and, or is there essence. And then we all have a survival mechanism, which is all the strategies we have to protect ourselves. And those get put in place somewhere between, you know, like around the age of five to seven. And, um, and the problem is that we forget who we are and we have constructed this life. From our survival mechanism from this false self and so, and I'm going to tie this back to project design eventually. But, um, so the greatest example of this from my life is that I was an architect for 20 years and. I could not have constructed a career, no pun intended, an architectural career constructed more out of line with who I am. Right. So I, I, well, and not, not completely because I, you know, I think my, I wasn't really thinking about a career. I just suddenly was on this track. It's like, must go to college must choose career. And suddenly I'm like, lying my way into the architecture department at Berkeley. And it was like, I had no idea what I was doing.

Bill: Did you say your way into the

Norah: I was pretending I had more experience than I did. I mean, I didn't like. Yeah, I was my everybody's like, just tell them this and that. First of all, it's like, I'm such a truth seeker all the time that the whole thing was a mess, you know, from beginning to end. But, you know, I think I thought, well, it's artistic and it'll be practical. So, um, yeah. You know, I'll make money and even though on the 1st day, they said, if you think you're going to make money in this field, you should leave right now. And I just thought, well, that doesn't apply to me anyway. So that I started on this very rocky road down this career path that lasted 20 years and was excruciating. Really? I got frustrated. Fire it a couple times, and it's not that the artistic part I could do. I could do pretty drawings. I love nice architecture, but I am not a perfectionist and I'm not detail oriented and I can't stand managing lots of moving parts and I don't like a huge, especially then I was terrified of responsibility, so I was in fear most of my 20 years as an architect and not all of it. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but so I always look back on this with this using this model of essence and survival mechanism as, um, that was a, that was a career. I chose from my survival mechanism from, like, having this instinct. So that I had some ability. But then wanting to legitimize it in some, I was just like, so I was so off track. And my experience of life, having chosen this career from my survival mechanism was just painful. I mean, it was awful. I dreaded going to work. And so when I became, and then when I, in my forties, I, you know, I was doing a lot of, And I mean, I read every self help book available. I went to therapy. I did a lot of like self development courses, I think, because I was finding life so painful. And it was through that process that I discovered coaching. And so when I got the possibility of coaching. Um, it was. I was just like, there was like a piece of the puzzle just kind of fell into place. It was like, that is what I was meant to do. That is what I want to do. And I have no idea how I'm going to do it. I have no business skills. I have no coaching. I've never, I actually had been coaching a little bit, but I didn't know it was an actual profession, but I, and that sounds scary because if that I was coaching with no skills, but within the framework of a program, They were actually training us to do what I soon understood to be coaching. So. In a way, this is like, so then I wanted, so I had this goal, this desire to accomplish something, which was to be a coach. And I had no idea how I was going to do it, but my, the pull to it was so strong that it was worth all the discomfort and all of the pain I was clearly going to have to go to through to, to do that.

Marty: So it sounds like that's. This is this applies to project design. You don't want to the goal that is out of alignment with who you are and what you're capable of or what you want to be your life to be. If you're working on a project, choose a project that it, it lands like. Yes, I want that.

Norah: Right. And the three ingredients, sorry, the three ingredients for me to any project design is that it's inspiring. Like you were just saying, like, I want that. Like if I could have that, I want it. The second one is that you have no idea how you're going to accomplish it. Right. It's not like I'm going to get my room organized next year. It's like, it's bigger. It's a, it pulls you. Forward, it's worth being uncomfortable for, um, it's out of your comfort zone. And the reason why that's important is because otherwise you're just, it's going to be business as usual, right? There's no growth. If you're not out of your comfort zone, and if you already know how to do something, there's really no growth. So I knew that the person I had to be to be a coach was my essence really, but I couldn't coach for my survival mechanism. I couldn't coach for my protective strategies that kept me small. I was going to have to grow in this process.

Bill: And I do just a little bit of reflecting, want to kind of do some summarizing of what I've heard so far, Norah, and then ask you to just continue once, once, uh, once I've done that. So you spent 20 years in a profession that was painful to experience for 20 years. You, you even got fired you said a couple of times. You ended up in that profession because you made a decision when you were in college and you made a decision to go to college just because that's what you were supposed to do. You were supposed to go to college and you were supposed to pick a specialty and you found yourself lying your way into right angles and and algorithms and saying stuff that convinced them that you should be there and found yourself thinking that you were going to be drawing pretty pictures but being asked to do things that you didn't enjoy doing. But you did that for 20 years. That says a lot about, about your survival mechanism, doesn't it?

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: That, that you're able to endure something so painful for that long.

Norah: That's a great point. Absolutely. Yeah. So

Bill: life, life was painful. I'm guessing when you say life was painful, it wasn't just your job. Maybe that same survival mechanism contributed to you enduring other aspects of your life that made life so painful that you got interested So you were in the study of Norah, like, well, how do I feel better? How do I stop suffering? And finally you discovered coaching. So how I want to ask you that. I know it's a bit of an interruption if you want to just continue with what you're saying and then come back, that'd be fine. But I want to hear about that. How did you discover coaching? And now let me just go to the next piece. You said there's three ingredients to successful project design. And I think I got all three, but I'm not sure. Number one, the project itself needs to inspire you. And then you went to the three ingredients of a successful project design. And I heard, number one, it needed to inspire you. Number two, uh, it's something you don't already know how to do. And I think number three is that it pulls you forward, or is it, was that part of number two?

Norah: It's out of your comfort zone, which is similar to number two. Yeah, that it's out of your comfort zone, which kind of goes along with what makes things out of our comfort zone. So we have no idea how to accomplish them. So maybe it's like two a and two B.

Bill: Okay. All right. I just wanted to do those reflections and I would like at some point to hear about how you discovered coaching, but please proceed. I'm kind of wrapped in your flow here.

Norah: Well, just to sum up how I started this conversation. And that is that. The the being of being a coach was something that just pulled me. It's like, I know that this will require me to do this. So it was worth going through whatever I was going to have to go through to be a coach. It was like a structure for me to be my essence. Yeah. Right. Architecture was a structure for me to continue to be in my survival mechanism. Right. It didn't have to be like, that's a whole other conversation. And it's like, I could have, if I had had the training brought my essence to that, but it was going to be a lot more work. But the other thing that was missing in architectures, I had no goal. I was just facing a lifetime of a career. I was just, my goal was to survive and to be, maybe get comfortable. Um, You know, in whatever I was doing and not get fired. So it's not inspiring. It wasn't out of my comfort zone and I knew how to do that already.

Marty: Yeah, yeah, that's great. No, that's that. I mean, that makes the heartbeat to look at it this way. That's it seems to me, like, that's part of the answer to my question, because the project design is a structure for sustaining your essence, right? Or the 1 or it could be a way of being. Maybe it's not your, it's like, you're, you're, you're building something and and the possibility of building that is that. A lot of people get happy or whatever. And so it's not, you know, you, it's not the goal isn't to be your essence, although you will be that always, but it's the possibility of serving all those people. Right?

Norah: Right. Well, yep.

Marty: So the reason I asked this question, because this is why this is where I see people falling down. It's like, you know, If that's out there, the project design is meant to be a structure to sustain that. What? What? How does how does the structure sustain a way of being?

Norah: Well, it's built on if you follow those 1st, 3 criteria built on. It's like inevitable. It's built. It's inevitable, right? If I want, let's say, for instance, one of my milestones, and I'm going to just pick up on your language, because we have actually very, very similar ways of creating a project design. So, and you've already gone over that. So, um. If 1 of my milestones is to, you know, especially in the beginning, it's like to have 5 clients by this date. Right? The only way I can get there is to do the work, confront the things I'm going to have to confront to be my essence and. Also, to create a new relationship with my survival mechanism, so that's that's the missing piece. Yeah,

Marty: because I think this is important point for the listener. Like, you're the, the, the structure, the design of the project is meant to confront you with being in your possibility. All the way along, so you don't choose activities that avoid that, or that thwart it, or something like that. You, you're, you're purposely choosing activities that are going to call you to be the way you want to be.

Norah: Exactly. And it's designed to drive up your survival mechanism. That's what being outside your, if it's, if you meet the criteria of being outside your comfort zone, you are guaranteed to meet up with your survival mechanism and your survival mechanism will come in and try to stop you and tell you it's a bad idea. And what were you thinking? Five clients, you don't know how to coach. You've never had a business. You know, it's like all the voices of my survival mechanism were right there. So I would say it. Okay, so here's the difference between being in my survival mechanism as an architect and being in my survival mechanism as I move towards my goal as a coach in 1, in 1 instance, it was just my survival mechanism was just running the show as an architect. With the in the project design, it was something it was like, my growth edge. It was something I needed to overcome to get to this very, very, very inspiring goal. I had something that made it worth it to go through the pain. Of not just collapsing into my survival mechanism, but what was required was for me to develop an entirely new relationship to my survival mechanism to first acknowledge. I had 1 to, uh, secondly, get familiar with it, you know, to just like, bring shine some light on it. And most importantly is to not beat it up and create that adversarial relationship with it that I had had my whole life. You know, all of us are trying to hide the parts of ourselves. We don't like and pretend. We're not that and all of that stuff. So the goal is not to shove it away. Like, is most people's impulse when they find out they have something called a survival mechanism, but to actually. Get to know that part of you, that part of ourselves. And this is very much similar to the work Bill does with, um, internal family systems. It's like, Oh, that scary part of me, that fearful, annoying gets in my way. It's going to stop me from becoming a coach. Part of me, it's actually just like this very wounded, sad, scared, you know, part of me that needs my compassion for my essence. Right. And so that's where the growth is. It's like, it's not just, I'm going to create this great thing for my essence and then I'm going to be my essence all the way through. It's like, no, it's, it's like when you, and I'm still in process on this, I think we all are when you have a way to soften your relationship to the parts of you that you don't like, it's like anything is possible. It just opens up a whole new world.

Marty: And that's the point of doing a project. And the point of the design is to create those opportunities for growth.

Norah: Yeah, and that's why it's so important. It's outside your comfort zone. Right? Right. Well,

Marty: that won't happen if

Norah: it's not outside your comfort zone.

Marty: I

Norah: don't know,

Marty: and I just want to put an exclamation point on this and then I'll back away and let Bill to talk. Um, so, um, It's going to come up, even as you sit down to design the project, it's going to be right there. So that's supposed to happen if you're going to grow. Exactly, exactly.

Norah: I have many clients tell me they cried when they wrote their vision, which was part of the project design that it just because. We're so used to operating into the box of our survival mechanism that we don't even play in this other realm. We don't even pretend like we could have. You know, a different life or a different outcome, you know, we're not like children going, I'm going to be a fireman and a ballerina, you know, it's like, we've completely lost that. Most of us, you know, we're just like, well, what can I do? And our whole life is like limited by the box. We put ourselves in through no fault. You know, it's just human nature. And so stepping outside of that and risking, I think it's a question of risking humiliation and embarrassment by actually dreaming of something that you want so badly that you don't have feel like you have access to from the lens of your survival mechanism is it can be painful and hopeful and liberating.

Bill: Absolutely. Well, it's a fear of humiliation. Yeah, that can show up. But I would say it's also a fear of having to experience loss, discourage, be feeling discouraged and disappointed and having to let go of that dream. That's painful. And most of us don't know. We haven't been had grief modeled to us very well.

Norah: Totally agree with that. Yeah.

Bill: Let me just do a little review again then. So I'm hearing, uh, when you're identifying a project. That project is going to come out of the vision. Is that accurate? You start with a vision and then the project comes out of the vision?

Norah: Um, you know, I was listening to your conversation. It's like, whether you start with the objective or the vision, like you're, you know, um, the possibility, I call the object, what you're calling possibility is I call the objective. It's like the emotional juice. Like, why is that important to you? What the fulfillment of that, as you said, why is that important to you? That's like the real core of it. Sometimes you get there by writing a vision of like, you know, by asking someone, what's your ideal life? Like, tell me about a day in the life. Of your dream life, you know, and it starts with I wake up in my silk sheets with the sun coming through the window next to my favorite person in the world. And I'm excited to get out of bed. And, you know, so I think it's a, um, it doesn't like the vision and the objective kind of, or the possibility is Marty called it on your call, which I totally agree with that terminology kind of work together. And even smart goal, even like what you're going to be measuring can also come out of your vision, like you might have an objective and think, well, I don't know, you know, I have a, like, my objective is. having my work be an expression of my essence, something like that. And it might not be clear what you're actually going to measure. And then you start writing your vision and it's like, you know, letting it flow, letting yourself just have be in that creative space. And from that, you might think, Oh, you know, what's part of that? Like cooking every night or like, I don't know, like something you didn't even, weren't even thinking about like having a garden You know, so they all work together in a symbiotic relationship.

Bill: I should probably have mentioned this earlier because you've referenced it a couple of times. Now, uh, Norah is referring to episode number 40 project design. Part 1. that was just between Marty and I, and that was in season 1 when we were calling the podcast together. Not your typical leadership coaching. This is episode 45. Since then, we've rebranded, we're in season 2, and now it's called the Leadership Coaching Podcast. So, if you want to check out that earlier conversation so you know what Norah's referring to, please do that. Episode number 40. Mm hmm.

Norah: And I'm happy to do, you know, to go over my version of all these pieces and how they work together for me, if that would be useful, or you can just refer to that.

Bill: Well, we've got about 1314 minutes left here. So, maybe we use the time for that. But I suspect that there's probably other things along the lines of. More conversation around being, for example, identify this idea of, and I can just almost feel the fear from the listener as we talk about how a good, successful project design starts with identifying a project that will trigger your parts, IFS language that will bring up, drive up your survival mechanism. So I really love what you said about. Why would we want to do that? Well, it's because the survival mechanism will collapse any possibility if it's allowed to run the show. And we can just assume that the project itself and the vision itself so far haven't been possible because survival mechanism to some degree has been running the show. So we want to bring it up, but rather than fighting it and resisting it, knowing that it's going to persist and get stronger when it does, that's And rather than just giving up and surrendering to it, what there is to do is, number one, as you said, acknowledge that we have a survival mechanism, and now begin to distinguish it by becoming very familiar with it. What I tend to do is this in this situation. I just noticed today that this happened in this situation. When I consider the possible, what might be required of me in order for this project to be successful, this is what happens inside me. And this is. This is what I want to do, and this is what I usually do because I want to do that because of the way it feels inside.

Norah: Yeah.

Bill: And then to develop, and I'd like to use at least some of our additional time to talk about this. So. Now we've distinguished the survival mechanism. We, we recognize what is it that I do to sabotage so that I don't have that, that life that I want. How do you develop that? So I know I use internal family systems for this. I'm curious about how you do it. How do you develop that non adversarial, that friendly relationship with your survival mechanism?

Norah: Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, Like all good coaches, I have a lot of good questions for that part of me. And so here's just some of the things I've collected from my experience of helping people work with their survival mechanism and my own. And the first thing is to, if I'm in my survival mechanism, I'm something scared me. So just knowing that so instead of, you know, normally I would be like, you know, Oh, why do you feel that way? You know, just all the negative self talk. I'd go. Oh, wow. You got scared. Like, what happened right before you got scared? That can be something like someone. I felt like that person didn't like me. You know, that's 1 of my sensitivity. So they're mad at me. Oh, my gosh. Don't ever be mad at me. You know, it's like. Oh, I said something, you know, and that person's mad that can send me down, you know, my survival mechanism. But the thing that's less obvious is sometimes what happens is really great. Like, sometimes, like, you get 2 clients in 1 day and you're like, you can have an attack of your survival mechanism because your survival mechanism's only goal is to keep you safe. And that got put in place at a very young age. So having two clients is very risky to your survival mechanism. And it's just on high alert, high alert, high alert. And it's like, no, no, no, no, that was such a bad idea. So you bear, you know, sometimes you barely get to enjoy the success that you put down as a milestone because your survival mechanism might just. Be like, this is too much. You're not gonna be able to handle it. Let's go back into our comfort zone. So just understanding that and stepping in is, you know, I think in internal family system, it's, it's like the true self or the adult can come in and comfort that part of you. That's just like a scared kid. You know, your survival mechanism is just a scared kid and just, you know, it's like, I got this, you know, it's like, you don't have to worry about this. You can go play and do things that are appropriate. Good. To your age, you know, so, um, so that's one thing just realizing it's fear, knowing that fear can be, you know, triggered by bad things happening or, you know, or familiar things happening, um, that or familiar in the sense of familiarly triggering and also something good happening. So that's like 1 example. So it's just working with it and realizing it's just, you know, that's kind of my best example. I know I have a whole series of questions I give my clients to, um, you know, to, to kind of address their survival mechanism, but it does, and it does take like a very high level of consciousness and a commitment to work through it. Right. You know, it's not about avoiding your survival mechanism or distracting yourself from it. You gotta, you know, it's like it takes time and space and intention to work on the relationship like any relationship. It needs your attention.

Bill: Yeah.

Norah: And over time, it's less and less attention, hopefully,

Bill: yeah. Well, it's like exercising a muscle.

Norah: Yeah,

Bill: but I notice with myself when I'm being supported with IFS and with my clients that I support with IFS is that it's like there's more spaciousness. It's lighter. They're still going to get activated, but they're, they're going to be less likely to be. deeply rooted and committed to, to that activation, like a wise adult, as you say, shows up with all these resources. The parts think, Oh, thank God. Thank God. It's here to handle this. This is too much for me. Oh,

Norah: and you just remind me of something critical that it, especially, I think this is something that makes. Yeah. I would say this makes me unique as a coach and you guys hopefully agree with this. It's like, I bring so much humor to the fact that we have a survival mechanism. And even in our training, we name it really outrageous things. Like one of mine is blood sucking zombie. And so, you know, that sounds crazy, you know, kind of you guys would never say, Oh, Norah is such a blood sucking zombie. But I know exactly what that means. It means that I'm needy. And I'm the zombie part is I'm kind of checked out, like spacing out, just avoiding, and I'm needy at the same time. So we intentionally put these crazy names on it so that you can see it's not who you are. It's just an, it's just a, you know, It's a strategy. It's just something you came up with and it had its use. It's not wrong. It's not bad. I bring a lot of lightness to survival mechanism that I think is unique. You know, people can get, we can all get very significant about this work and Oh, it's so terrible that you have a survival mechanism, but it's like, we are all in the same boat and you might as well have a sense of humor about it. Not all the time. Sometimes something really gets you and you got to maybe do different work, but, you know, realizing that, okay, this is the truth that the whole point of working with this concept is that to have a choice about who you're going to be in life. So knowing that there's a true self, this is like who I am. The way we get essence is from all the people, a lot of people in your life. So it's not you reporting on your essence. So there's a me that it goes beyond my impressions of myself. And that I have this other, this strategy, this thing I do when I'm scared, which, you know, in times of my life has been a lot of my time. And, and until you distinguish that and separate that out and see it, It feels like you don't have choice. It's like, oh, someone said that to me. So I have to be upset or I have to do something about it. Whereas you could say, oh, that's survival mechanism. Like, from my essence, what do I see as possible here? What was there to communicate? And I actually have a choice at any moment. And you can choose your survival mechanism. There were times when I was becoming a coach when, you know, I remember my coach at the time said, so you're going to call 10 people. And I was like, I am not calling 10 people, not in a million years. Am I calling 10 people? And she's like, well, that, you know, do you want to be in your survival mechanism? Like, yes, I do. I am not doing that thing. You just said, and it's, it's not bad. It's just, uh, you have a choice.

Marty: Can I ask, um, this is a little bit off the topic, but this is something that has come up when I work with clients on project design. It's maybe someone more refined, but I think it's, it's a crucial piece. I was taught to design the project from the back toward the present. So, and in particular, in such a way that as you're working it. As you're implementing it from the present toward the goal that it gets easier and easier. It's like the way keeps getting clearer as you go through it. And so the design. Is such that you leave the 1st milestone makes the 2nd milestone even easier and the 2nd milestone makes the 3rd milestone just like an inevitability and it gets easier and easier as you go through the project. And that's that I think that makes a big difference in the design.

Norah: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I had like three thoughts going on, you know, I always use this metaphor if I wanted to, if I knew I used to be in love with Everest, you know, I'm not a climber or anything, but I did actually go to Nepal and, but if I were going to climb Everest, the amount of things I would have to do and train and I would be so overwhelmed standing where I'm standing here. And, you know, so you start at the top. It's like, I'm at the top of Everest. That's the vision. It's like, wow, I'm so proud of myself. I have, like, you know, then there's the objective is like, why is that important to you? It's, you know, I don't know, meeting my full potential and all aspects of my being, you know, and then it's like, oh, I'm standing at the top of Everest. I'm planting my flag. I'm eating my last energy bar or my last You know, hopefully not your last energy bar. And then it's like, okay, so what would have to happen 200 feet down from the top? It's like, oh, I'd need two oxygen tanks and four candy bars. And then what would I need? You know, 200 feet down from that, it's like double that amount of oxygen and candy bars and you're backing your way into the present. And so, and then all, so the whole map is already laid out by the time you finish this project process. And all you have to do is your worry about the nearest milestone, which is like, I need to go out and buy a guidebook. That's it. Right? And you chunk it down into these pieces and you only have to worry about 1 milestone at a time. And that's your nearest milestone.

Bill: Yes. Yeah. And

Norah: it just makes it. Yeah.

Bill: I need to let you guys know we got like two minutes from our dead stop, Norah. So

Norah: yeah,

Bill: I'm sorry. We could keep going. I can, this is a wonderful conversation, but let me ask you this important question. And that is if someone gets wants to work with you or has questions for you, wants to get in contact with you, how would they do that?

Norah: Um, the best way would be to call me. Can I give my phone number on this? Of course. Sure. 310 963 6014. All right. It's, I have a website, Norah edelstein.com. Bill just pointed out that my, uh, booking a discovery session button is not working. So that needs to be corrected. But, um, yeah, just reach out, text,

Marty: say the number one more time,

Norah: 3 1 0 9 6 3 6 0 1 4

Bill: and look at show notes. The phone number and the email, excuse me, the website will be there. Norah, thank you so much for joining us.

Norah: Thank you. I

Bill: appreciate you taking the time and blessing us with your wisdom and your experience and your powerful coaching.

Norah: Thank you.

Bill: Thank you.

Norah: Thank you guys for having me. I really enjoyed it.