Marty: Welcome everybody to another exciting episode of Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching. Y'all

Bill: see how

Marty: exciting it is. I set us up. Now we got to prove ourselves to be exciting, which by the way, um, the name of the podcast will be changing in the future. So we'll, we'll keep you updated, but we're, we're shortening the title to Leadership Coaching.

Bill: Podcasts. Yeah, the leadership podcast. So we're looking into all that right now. Hopefully we can make all those changes. Yes. Have a new website and yeah, all of this. That's exciting. There you go.

Marty: For us in here. We feel bad. Well, I think it is very exciting. The topic that we, we have for today, um, which is about the self with a capital S. Um, so let's first distinguish that. And, and, and we want to talk about, this is a huge topic. So we're going to focus on the relevance of the self to leadership and to coaching. Right. Um, so let's distinguish this self, the capital S from our normal usage of the word self with a small S. What do we mean? We're not meaning like self

Bill: centered. Self obsessed, selfish. We're not talking about that here. What we're really talking about is a question that, um, philosophers and thinking men and women have been considering for ever since the invention of thinking, who am I? Right? In this podcast episode, we're not going to answer that question, especially we might, we might have some opinions about it, maybe. Um, but, but the question, who am I, um, is I think an important question to answer for ourselves individually.

Marty: Right. Well, The Delphic Oracle, which has had a big impact on Western society, said that is the question to ask.

Bill: And how is, how does the, how did you say that, Delphic Oracle? Yeah. How does, how do they, how does that state the question? The Oracle state the

Marty: question. Well, the Oracle told Socrates and many other people to know thyself. Who are you? What are you? Right?

Bill: I like, I like, so when I first started going to AA meetings in 1982, there was this guy in Kalispell, Montana, and it never failed. Didn't matter what the topic was. He would always talk about what the topic was not. I loved it. I just really enjoyed this guy. So if we were talking about acceptance, Let's say his name is George. George would say, I'm George and I'm an alcoholic, and I want to talk about what acceptance is not.

Marty: This

Bill: is not compliance. Acceptance is not, and so he would go on, and I loved it. It really got my thinking machine going in a different direction. And I needed that. Boy, did I need that. I think maybe we, we could, we could entertain that for just a bit. What, who am I not?

Marty: Very good. Um, so we're still on this question. So we'll get to its relevance to coaching and to leadership in a 2nd, but this is helpful what it's not. You said it's not selfishness or self centeredness. What all that points to is the ego. So when what it's not is the ego.

Bill: Well, let's take a moment with the ego too, because I believe that word is very confusing. Oh, well, that's just your ego. Think that kind of a comment, uh, or thought about even myself. Oh, that's just my ego. Um, points to the truth that we are trying to define right now. Right. That's not you. That's just your ego is really what that's saying.

Marty: It

Bill: kind of lands as a criticism though. Well, if, if, What is it to be criticized? What, what are we criticizing when we say that's not, that's, that's just your ego. Essentially, what I feel when, when I'm considering that thought or that judgment is, oh, this is just me showing off. This is just me performing. This is just me hiding. This is just what I do shroud myself. So nobody actually sees who I am,

Marty: which is 1. Yeah, that's. That is definitely one angle on it, for sure. And it's an important one. If you just, if you took the word just out of that sentence, it's just ego. It's ego is part of us. I mean, I don't want to just it. I don't want to lower it in any way. It is ego. It's not just ego is important. I mean, ego, we spend most of our lives in, in, uh, a conversation about what it means to me, what it's going to do to me, how well I'm doing, how I'm coming across like that. This is not to be lowered down to, Oh, just ego. It's an really important part of who we are, and it needs to be looked at and studied and empowered. So I would just take it off the, you know, just Ego. And say, no, it's ego. It's important. This

Bill: is your ego. This is self. This is your ego. This is your true self. Yeah.

Marty: And, and by the way, for those out there who have any exposure to yoga, the philosophy, as well as the asanas, the yoga world for 6000 years has divided human, the human being into three major parts, the self. The ego and the body. So, you know, just just to keep it in perspective. There's also the body. So we're not just our body. We're not just our ego. And so what we're trying to get a focus on here is, well, what is that other? Who am I? Besides that, .

Bill: Other than my ego, other than my body. Who am I?

Marty: Mm-Hmm. .

Bill: Right. So what, how would you define ego then? I think we can assume that we all know what body is, but what is ego?

Marty: I don't, I don't wanna be held to a definition , but that was an egoistic thing to say. Not istic, but istic. I would be really simplistic about this. I would say it's anything processed by mind.

Bill: Hmm. Wow. Okay. Before we started today, you said, can we talk about spirituality? So is that the definition of spirituality? Then we've got spirituality and then mind. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So anything processed by mind would be ego. Anything not processed by mind would be self. And that's more related to spirituality.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: yeah.

Marty: And of course, there are, you know, the, the mind can help us see spirit or, or self and spirit can give us things to think about as well. So there's crossover. There's not like a big wall of China between these 2, but they are distinct. They're very different. So, like, for example, cool. When, uh, let's say you have a very rational choice in front of you. Uh, I don't know, maybe you're hiring somebody, and you're looking at the pros and cons of this VP over that VP, for example.

Bill: Coincidentally, what a great example,

Marty: right? And you've got it down to a science and you've got all of these, you know, Pros and cons for each of them, and you're just adding up, you know, the, the value of each of those pros and cons, and you could be very rational about it and and it says, you know, well, we should pick this guy then he won. He won the rational race here. But then you sit and you think for a couple hours, you like, you know what? I really, I really think I'd be better with that guy. Let's, let's choose that 1, even though that 1 rationally stacks up my intuition tells me this is going to be the 1 now that's choice. Which, I mean, it could be, it could be made by the body. Maybe you're hot on that person physically, right? Chemistry, they talked a lot about Harris's, uh, attraction to, uh, Wald's chemists, chemically. So there's that, that's not what we're talking about. And, but, but it's, it's a way that we, Choose that we make judgments and inferences and have knowledge head. It comes from somewhere else, a deeper, more universal kind of knowing

Bill: really interesting. Can I jump in with, with my really simplified, um, version of the difference between ego and self? And I'm I'm gonna have to find my way back here because I'm really intrigued by what you what you've just shared too as you Were talking I was thinking of Some of the other things that I heard early in 12 step Blew my mind given where I came from and how I thought of myself and human beings When the very first time I heard or read someone say I am a spiritual being having this physical experience That was Life changing for me.

Marty: And

Bill: now it just came into my head for the first time ever. Uh, it's not nearly as profound, but it is somewhat profound is that I'm also a spiritual being that's having this mental experience.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: exactly. Yeah. And maybe that distinguishes the difference between, um, that of the mind and that of the spirit or of matter. For me, the simplified version is And I thought of it this way before I was even introduced to IFS, and maybe it was because I'd already thought of it this way, I was easily able to embrace the concepts of a self and protectors. Yeah. And, and the exiles. So I, I thought of it this way. Who I really am is who I was born as. And you, there's probably been other episodes where I've said this. It's who I am today and it's who I will be the day I leave the planet.

Marty: Mm-hmm,

Bill: and who I am. My true self is whole, perfect and complete. My perception of myself though changes over time. When I begin to think of myself as less than whole perfect and complete for whatever for whatever reason something's happened in my life And I've now got an idea a theory that there's something about me. That's less than whole perfect and complete

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: I now have begun to develop an ego

Marty: Yes

Bill: An identity. Yes prior to identity. I had I I just was

Marty: That's right. I am the great I am

Bill: the self, the self. If you, if you ask an infant, who's now learned how to speak. Who are you? They're not going to say I am, but, but they're not going to give you much of an answer either, unless they just really surprise you. They're not going to understand the question. What do you, who, what do you mean? Who am I?

Marty: Right. Right.

Bill: Maybe by now they've gotten mama, dad, that sister, brother, and maybe they've learned to point at their nose when they say, and who are you? And, or something, but they it's, it's, it's these concepts and ideas that begin to formulate. Uh, and identity of who we are, and the first level of identity, I, I believe is shame. I identify as less than whole, perfect, and complete, which I use as a definition now for what, what is shame? Shame is the belief that I'm less than whole, perfect, and complete.

Marty: And

Bill: then there's another layer of, of ego, let's just say, or identity, which is that, that part of the ego that's in charge of making sure that nobody finds out that I have shame.

Marty: Now

Bill: I present present some version of myself to the world. I think landmark calls it the act so that I'm lovable, acceptable and belong, but none of that is who I am. It's just who I'm trying to convince others that I am or who I'm convinced that I am.

Marty: Yeah, exactly.

Bill: So that's how I think

Marty: about

Bill: it.

Marty: So two things start with that, that your last time. So this is where a lot of people get stuck. Uh, it's like, wait, I've never heard about this self thing before this whole perfect being like, and now you're introducing, you're saying that's who I am. And all the things that I thought about myself up till now is not who I am. That's kind of hard to take. But, but, you know, I think that that shows. Why it's so important for us to access the self within ourselves and within our lives, because. That's what allows perspective and, um, different actions than we've been taking. A whole new realm opens up when, when you can see that all of that thinking. That's that's limiting the who you who it's not you, it's limiting the view of who you really are, which is this whole perfect and complete being the other. And then that opens up the 2nd thing I wanted to say, which is that. One of the, one of the ways I think about it is that the, who we really are, the self with a capital S is the one that does the choosing once we've become aware of ego, like once we can see, oh, that thought about me that I'm not capable, that thought about me that I'm not good enough, that thought about me that nobody likes me, like, none of that. Is really me. And when I can see that now I'm at choice now I can either, I can either go on behaving as if all that stuff was true, or I could step out in a new direct, I could, I could be a big, I could be bigger than those thoughts. I could live in a realm. That is not defined by those thoughts. So I, you know, it's, uh, this is I think why it's so important for leaders and in the coaching context to see, like, that that moment when you when the coach says, do you realize that you're limiting yourself in some way? Right? That that puts you now you are now you're you cannot but be. Your true whole complete self with the information that that thought that you've been having is limiting this. Now you're a choice. You've got all the power.

Bill: Well, if you can find your way there, that's the challenge. So it begins intellectually Oh, I now see that i'm limiting myself by thinking of myself in these limiting ways Now that I know that And, and know that I can have more power if I can let go of these limiting ways of thinking. How do I let go of these limiting ways of ways of thinking so that I can get to that power? That's, that's the, the next challenge, isn't it?

Marty: Maybe. And why I say that is because I have often found in the living of my own life, not to mention observing my clients that sometimes all it takes is seeing what you're not, you don't, you know, I don't have to know how to go on from there necessarily. That's, that's going to be important informational question, but just the seeing puts me at choice. I know I'm not that. So whatever comes out of that knowing is self.

Bill: That knowing that you're referring to is I I'm thinking of it in terms of insight landmark education talks about I don't know what I don't know. Insight comes from the realm of insight is not learning something new insight is learning that what you know is not so, and that learning comes about by realizing that something can something is true and can only be true of what I think is true is not say that again. I don't know that I can. I think I'm trying to define insight. I believe that insight is realizing something is true. And at the very same time, realizing that what I thought is true is not, there's not room for both of them to be true.

Marty: Nothing

Bill: is true. Therefore, what I thought was true cannot be. And now I'm at a, now I think I'm at a choice point, or maybe it's just obvious. Maybe once I see something as the truth, and it's, and it's, Presented before me next to a belief, which is only a theory of what could be true.

Marty: It's just

Bill: I've thought of it so much that it feels like the truth to me until the actual truth shows up. I think that's what an insight is. Okay.

Marty: Um, no, so just a couple of examples here. Maybe I had a very accomplished client, um, who worked at Nicholas and, um, I just at the end of the coaching call, I just said to him. You know, it just sounds like you're, you don't, you're not enjoying your work. You know, this is a general comment, obviously, but that reflection changed his life. Like, he hadn't seen that he was being not enjoying. The ego was created that there's something to not enjoy here. And as soon as I pointed that out, that he, who he was being was not self, but. A complaint about life. He immediately shifted. In fact, we had maybe 1 or 2 maybe sessions after that and he was freed. He didn't need me anymore. All he needed was that reflection so that he was not going to continue to be he chose like, I'm not going to continue to be not enjoying. That's not me. That's

Bill: amazing. It is great powerful example of how what can happen with insight When you see what you're missing, I don't he didn't know that he didn't know that until you pointed it out Right once you pointed it out He saw it it aligned and another thing that comes out of what you just said in that story is that How do you know that you're you're actually being yourself rather than being your ego? One of the one of the qualities that show up in in self is joy right Said to him you're not experiencing one of the qualities of being himself. You're not enjoying joy,

Marty: right? Right.

Bill: And he saw it. Oh yeah. There's that's missing. And I want that. What am I doing here? Yeah, that's great. Great story.

Marty: Yeah. And, and it's typical too. I mean, just last Thursday, I had a conversation with a client and, um, and he, he was, he had it that there was just no other way, but to be upset about the noise that his neighbors make with their firecrackers all 4th of July, there's just nothing else to do. You know, it was like fate. And when I pointed that out that, you know, he was limiting his thinking in that very way. Well, he got on the phone. He, he, he talked to the city manager and to, um, the, there was some other, uh, neighborhood advocate that he had a conversation. He got into action doing things from self that he wasn't, he couldn't even see as long as he was still being his ego.

Bill: Right, right, which probably included, uh, look how they're victimizing me here until somebody says you sound like a victim. And then the part that was managing, uh, not sounding like a victim was seen completely through. Right. And that's to take action. Yeah. Well, it didn't force him to, but he, like you said, he was that choice. Now, do I want to continue to, uh, To act as a victim pretend like i'm not and then be at the mercy of no I don't want to do that anymore. Yeah now that I see a path to my power Yeah, we've just got probably seven or eight minutes left here before I have a hard stop marty and I want to bring this to What's the importance, and you've, you've already begun to bring us in this, this direction. The value of this conversation around coaching and leadership, as I see it, is that when we can help people see, uh, that they're giving, somehow giving away their power where they're at and helping them to see that they're limiting themselves and that, that if they can step into who they really are, their self, their true self, then they can have their power back. Then we've done our jobs as coaches and as leaders, whether we're leading people to help them get there themselves, or we're leading ourselves to get there. If we see as leaders that somehow we've limited our own power, we can step back into our power by recognizing where we are acting from a false identity. And, and, and let go of that, that act, see what's in the way of just being our true and authentic self. In the story that you just told, the guy lived with his neighbors, setting off fireworks all year long, probably because he was afraid of confronting them. That's right. Because he was afraid that, that there just wasn't any, any other way around it. He had limited and couldn't see it at all. He had to deal with his own fear. Somehow get past it. Any idea how he did that? Was it a process or was it just as simple as, Oh, I see. I'm giving my power away.

Marty: Well, there was a coaching process that went into it. Yes. And then there was a process of, you know, planning then what to do about it. Once you recognize he had the power to, yeah. Yeah. I could happen in an instant, I suppose, but this one involved a process.

Bill: And it usually does. In fact, I'll say that the most exciting coaching, uh, sessions that I have with my clients are the ones where we get past the fear, step into power, and now explore what it looks like to be in action.

Marty: Can I give a quick, another quick example? Um, yeah. So I'll be quick with this. The, um, I remember you don't have to be too quick. Okay. Um, when Rudy Giuliani got into a bunch of trouble, what was it 2 years ago or something? I don't know exactly when that was. And he made this famous statement, you know, like, truth is not true. You know, they think this is truth. We think this is true. Truth is not truth. Um, and I was talking to a client. It just happened to be, um, and, and the client said, well, there's something I mean, he said, I get that, you know, what's true for you might not be true for me, but there's something about this that really bothers me. He said, he said, because some, some of your truth could lead to an accident. Your truth could lead to a very dire situation where my truth is leading us to make more money and to be happier. So. There's gotta be some way that, that we can, um, distinguish, you know, a, a better truth than, than, uh, a worse one. And that, I say, was the self speaking. Yeah. Because there's, there's nothing in the brain. Right. That that that tells us that you want to you want to choose truths that lead to better conclusions. Now, there's the brain doesn't tell us that's that's no, that's like an eternal truth. It's true on its face. It's it's self evident. And so that's something like that's a truth from the self rather than from a human brain.

Bill: It's only self evident to those, it's only self evident to those who can see the truth. The truth is the truth. I don't, Rudy, you and I both know Rudy Giuliano, Giuliani was creating, trying to create a new reality. Reality is there's only one truth. And, and for most of us, we rarely if ever actually even get a glimpse of what that is. In the meantime, we're operating on beliefs, concepts that come, we're operating on either beliefs and concepts that come as close as we can to what might be true, or we're just living from our true selves and we know what's true. It's the moment we try to put definition and language to what is truth that we step away from it.

Marty: And that's, this, what you're saying is what I'm saying. That's, this is like, this is intuitive. It's something that you can't teach somebody. It's just obvious. It's eternal truth. It's, it's in the realm of the self. It's obvious if you can see it. I mean, I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about the epistemological getting there to believing it and seeing it. I'm talking about it in itself is can't be questioned.

Bill: That's right. That's right. 1 more thing. I want to throw in here in the business of propping up and maintaining and sustaining an image and identity a false self. We use up a very limited amount of access to resources. We really limit our access to resources when we're busy propping up and sustaining a false image. Yeah, when that drops away and when we can just relax into being who we actually are We gain access to resources that otherwise we just don't even know exists, right? And I Huh like the truth And I well the truth will set you free. The truth is empowering all of that is so true Ego, I associate with effort trying and exhaustion Living a life from ego is absolutely exhausting and it's sewn through with a thread of suffering. Whereas if I can be my true authentic self, and this is the ultimate goal for me of helping my coaching clients and living my own life, is being my true authentic self. Because if I can, then life now begins to look a lot more like ease, flow, and energizing. I'm energized by the experience of being in my true authentic self. I'm exhausted by the effort. It takes to be an ego.

Marty: Right? Right there. We see solutions that we wouldn't others otherwise see. Absolutely. So just to, I totally agree with your. Even hard to put into words, it's like, there's a knowing there's a deeper seeing. There's a, there's a oneness with what real that that is available when you're not preoccupied with yourself that helps solve. I mean, the great example of this is, if you read the New Testament, you see Jesus coming up with solutions. Like, what? How did he think of that? You know, everybody else in the crowd is like, you can't do that. And he did it anyway. Right? Yeah. Cause he was coming from that fully sourced self.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Very good. Great conversation. Again, we need to wrap up. Okay. So the, the domain that we're going to be using now for the, uh, podcast, if you want to listen to this and other episodes of, uh, leadership coaching podcast is leadershipcoachingpodcast. com. There you go. Yes. Thanks Marty. Thank you. That concludes another episode of Not Your Typical Leadership Coaching. We hope you found inspiration and valuable insights to fuel your leadership journey. Remember, true leadership is not about you. It's about empowering others. Take your insights to heart and cultivate a leadership mindset that will transform you from within. Thank you for joining us on this quest to leadership excellence. Don't forget to subscribe and stay tuned for our upcoming episodes where we delve deeper into the art of leadership. Until next time, remember that you have the power to lead with confidence and compassion from the inside out.